SCOTUS: Citzens United To Be Re-Argued Today

The Citizens United case will be re-argued today before SCOTUS.  As Robert Barnes put it, this is yet another test of stare decisis in a period where that hallowed doctrine has been repeatedly tested since Justice Roberts took the helm.

And, more precisely, it "raises new ones about the boldness of a court that has moved to the right with the addition of Roberts and Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr."

The case itself is fascinating on a theoretical level, pitting individual rights, free speech and corporate definitions against one another. When you begin to mix in the real world implications of potential decision on this?

It gets even more interesting:

There are two other layers of disagreement in that background. One is over whether it makes constitutional sense to treat the spending of money as “speech,” and the spending of money on election campaigns as “political speech.” But that is a disagreement outside the Court; it is clear that the Court regards such spending to be speech that has at least some protection under the First Amendment. The Citizens United case may determine how much.

And the other layer of disagreement is whether corporations are entitled to some of the same protection, under the Constitution, as real people: in other words, should they be treated as “persons” who actually have constitutional rights? Once again, that appears not to be open to doubt within the Court. The origins of the notion that corporations are “persons” with constitutional rights are somewhat obscure (often traced, perhaps erroneously, to an 1886 Supreme Court decision, in Santa Clara County v. Union Pacific Railroad), but the Court does not question that they are persons in a legal sense. The coming decision in Citizens United will accept that as a premise for whatever rights corporations are found to have as political financiers.

Doug Kendall of CAC penned an op-ed for the LATimes on why there ought to be some debate:

The line between corporations and individuals when it comes to constitutional protections is as old as the United States. The framers wrote the Constitution to protect citizens and the people and never once used the word "corporations."

Early Supreme Court rulings embraced this distinction, holding that the legal rights of a corporation derive from its corporate charter, not the Constitution. . . .

The court’s ruling in Austin, in other words, is fully consistent with the Constitution’s text and history. If conservative justices on the Supreme Court overrule Austin, they will be guilty not only of unleashing corporate influence on elections — in blatant disregard of the will of Congress and of the American people — but of violating their own purported allegiance to upholding our founding document.

The Austin case is Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce, a seminal case which prohibited corporate funds from being directly used to support state candidates.

As an interesting historical note, Justices Kennedy and Scalia joined the dissent against Thurgood Marshall’s majority opinion in Austin. You have to wonder where Kennedy’s leaning at this point, don’t you?

Heather Gerken, writing at Balkinization, detailed the political pressure points oozing out around the carefully crafted legal brinksmanship:

While the First Amendment issues at stake in Citizens United are technically questions of law (something that one could imagine resolving after additional briefing), they turn on complicated questions of fact. It’s not just that the regulatory scheme here is dense and intricate. The whole system is dense and intricate. Decisions made about one form of spending can have a powerful ripple effect. Even seemingly minor changes can affect how parties work, even how politics work. And the Court doesn’t seem to be contemplating a minor change. Overruling Austin would blow a sizeable hole in the regulatory scheme. . . .

You might think that facts shouldn’t matter here. Either the restrictions on corporate spending are constitutional, or they aren’t. Damn the torpedoes, full steam ahead. But that’s not how campaign finance doctrine works; it’s not even how the First Amendment works. Context matters. That’s why the Court spends time thinking about whether, say, newspapers are different from television stations. That’s why the First Amendment applies differently to schools than it does to the public square.

What is true of constitutional law generally is certainly true of the domain of politics. Elections are strange constitutional hybrids; they involve activities at the core of the First Amendment’s protections and yet are pervasively regulated by the state. As a result, election law has always been exceptional, prompting scholars (PDF) to insist that constitutional law simply can’t be applied wholesale to election law.

Daphne has even more at the Washington Independent.  SCOTUSWiki has helpfully posted all the briefs filed in the case, as well as prior argument information.

The Court has issued a schedule for the arguments as follows:

– Ted Olson receives 30 minutes to argue on behalf of appellant, Citizens United.
— Floyd Abrams will then have 10 minutes to argue on behalf of Sen. Mitch McConnell, as amicus curae in support of the appellant.
— Solicitor General Elena Kagan will then have 30 minutes to present arguments on behalf of the government’s position on behalf of the Federal Election Commission
— Then Seth Waxman will present supporting arguments on behalf of John McCain and others through amicus curae support of McCain-Feingold and the FEC.

Lyle at SCOTUSblog reports that the Court intends to expedite release of the audio of these arguments shortly following the proceedings. Should be an interesting day, to say the least.

 
83 Responses to "SCOTUS: Citzens United To Be Re-Argued Today"
OldCoastie | Wednesday September 9, 2009 05:30 am 1

‘morning, Redd…

don’t the corporations have all the rights anyway?

;-)


Christy Hardin Smith | Wednesday September 9, 2009 05:31 am 2

Morning all. Thought some background on this might come in handy for folks trying to follow along…should be a very interesting argument. Not the least of which because Ted Olson, who used to be Solicitor General argued the opposite point of view on behalf of the Bush Administration when McConnell and company challenged McCain-Feingold back in the day.

That’s going to be an interesting facet of all of this. Attorney’s argue the client’s position, not their own — but expect at least one of the justices to note that by bringing up some argument or other that Olson made back then.


Christy Hardin Smith | Wednesday September 9, 2009 05:33 am 3
In response to OldCoastie @ 1

All the rights that huge wads of moolah can buy, I suppose. *g*


OldCoastie | Wednesday September 9, 2009 05:56 am 4
In response to Christy Hardin Smith @ 3

I’m pretty certain we are screwed.


cobernicus | Wednesday September 9, 2009 05:56 am 5

This is the crux of the issue:

whether it makes constitutional sense to treat the spending of money as “speech,” and the spending of money on election campaigns as “political speech.”

The original ruling that money is “speech” is flawed. Money, by definition, is fungible. It has no content. If money really were speech, a candidate could save his voice and merely hand out money to his audience. (This has been tried… and tried in court and ruled illegal.) A defense attorney could offer cash instead of closing arguments.

If the Court is really serious it would reverse that ridiculous decision.


demi | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:04 am 6

I want a big ol’ pile of moolah. Then, I could stay home today and tonight and follow all the fun on today’s agenda.
Oh, and good morning, Christy. How’s the tum tum?


twolf1 | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:09 am 7

Good morning! On the east coast, it’s 09:09 09-09-09 :)


Christy Hardin Smith | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:10 am 8
In response to demi @ 6

A bit better, but still a bit icky. Taking it slow today…


demi | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:13 am 9
In response to twolf1 @ 7

It’s the same on the west coast, silly.


twolf1 | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:15 am 10
In response to demi @ 9

…except for the time part, silly.


demi | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:19 am 11
In response to Christy Hardin Smith @ 8

I hope you like rice.
And, OT to this thread, but a topic you lift up here regularly…feeding the kids. As, today is the first day of school for LA Unified, I got a robo message last week saying that if a student is not on the free or reduced lunch plan, but show up at school without lunch money, the student will be given a sack lunch which includes a 1/2 cheese sandwich, a piece of fruit and something else, which I cannot remember.
Nice, huh? That way they can concentrate on learning instead of their rumbly tummies. We’ll call it the socialist lunch, huh?


JimWhite | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:20 am 12

Good morning, Christy. Thanks for the detailed background on this very important case. I fear that this case could make us citizens even less than the afterthought that we already are in the corporatocracy our nation has become.


demi | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:21 am 13
In response to twolf1 @ 10

Oops. I’m a d’uope. Missed it by one :09.


foothillsmike | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:22 am 14
In response to cobernicus @ 5

Especially when a corporation can extort money from individuals who do not favor what the corporation wants. How many insurance policy holders would approve of spending $1.5 million a day of their premiums to fund the the baucus insurance company revenue enhancement act.


demi | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:26 am 15
In response to JimWhite @ 12

We’ll get our first glance at Sotomayor, right? If she goes with the corporations, there’s gonna be a lot of screaming, won’t there? Did I read somewhere that Stevens is planning to retire? What are the chances that the President will offer someone more liberal?
Am I asking too many questions? I should prolly go read your diary.


zak822 | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:30 am 16

I’m asking this as a serious question. If corporation are given even more status as legal persons will we be able to arrest and imprison them for breaking the law?


alank | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:30 am 17

What difference is it to corporations, the outcome? The big ones, you know, the privileged, well-fed few at the government trough, already have the power and influence over government they need. One way or another, their cash gets into politicians hands.

The case of more interest is one that challenges the notion that corporations are persons behind which top management get away with murder on a daily basis. There must be some out there.


lefttown | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:31 am 18

I’m not at all savvy about Constitutional Law, so I don’t know if this is a stupid, stupid question or not, but: do all the justices have to follow the premise that it’s settled law that corporations are people when they deliberate?


foothillsmike | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:32 am 19
In response to zak822 @ 16

They will write the laws; if you question them you will be arrested and imprisoned.


Christy Hardin Smith | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:33 am 20
In response to zak822 @ 16

We already can in terms of officers of the company and/or fining the corporation for internal wrongdoing. But it does beg the question as to who gets to stand in as the person at large for the corporation for imprisonment purposes, doesn’t it? Or do we just erect a barbed wire enclosure around HQ?


JimWhite | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:34 am 21

Christy, do you have any thoughts you’d like to share with us on how you think the case will turn out?


Christy Hardin Smith | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:36 am 22
In response to demi @ 15

This is the first case on which Sotomayor will participate, so this will be our first read-through of her reasoning and impact on the court as well. Although, honestly, SCOTUS tends to evolve the justice as much as the justice may shift the court over the first few years — so we won’t really have any idea of where she’ll come to rest for a few years on the ideology scale.

Although, if I had to guess, I’d say smack dab in the middle on a lot of things, especially corporate issues where she had some practice experience. But we’ll see.

On Stevens, he hired only one clerk thus far this year, which is unusual but not dispositive that he might be considering retirement.


Christy Hardin Smith | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:39 am 23
In response to JimWhite @ 21

I’m worried because the Court has been tilting so far right on so many cases. And I’m especially worried because when they announced the need for a re-argument, they specifically asked for briefing on the Austin arguments which doesn’t bode well.

OTOH, we’ve had a shake-up in the Court since then, and you can never predict what impact Sotomayor may or may not have in the short-run. And we have no idea how well Ted Olson will do today backtracking from his prior arguments for the other side of the coin — that for me is going to be the most interesting thing to watch, whether he gets pinned down by his own prior argument to the Court. But he’s an exceptional lawyer, and I’d be surprised if he hadn’t already anticipated most if not all of the points and counterpoints on that.

Whether he’ll be able to argue them successfully past the justices, though, is a whole other question.


Christy Hardin Smith | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:41 am 24
In response to lefttown @ 18

They don’t have to follow that as a rote point because its not entirely settled law.


dakine01 | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:42 am 25

IANAL but do have a question.

I believe the current laws ban campaign contributions from foreign nationals to US candidates.

Given that so many of the corporations are now “multi-nationals” with their putative headquarters in places like the Caymans and Lichtenstein, wouldn’t it be reasonable to extend the ban on contributions from non-citizens to include “non-US based corporations”

This wouldn’t do much on the Citizen United case but it seems that it would be reasonable given current laws.

But as always, I might be an idiot.


druidity36 | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:42 am 26
In response to JimWhite @ 21

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the court somehowrequested the case. That seems like a bad sign to me. But it’s just a gut reaction, i don’t know nuthin’ ‘cept what folk here at FDL tune me into. Then again, maybe i read that here somewhere…

:shrug:


JimWhite | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:46 am 27
In response to druidity36 @ 26

See Christy @22 for how they expanded the case. It also should be noted that they came back a month early from summer recess to hear arguments today. That sure looks like a danger sign to me.


demi | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:47 am 28
In response to dakine01 @ 25

You always ask interesting questions. I think.


druidity36 | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:49 am 29
In response to druidity36 @ 26

huh? don’t know how that happened. I responded to JimW’s post, and it got erased somehow. Maybe it was the “shrug”.

I wanted to relate the fact that the Court somehow requested this case be brought to them. Maybe i’m mistaken, as i see CHS has related in comment#23:

“And I’m especially worried because when they announced the need for a re-argument, they specifically asked for briefing on the Austin arguments which doesn’t bode well.”

I could be confusing the ‘requesting’…


Christy Hardin Smith | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:51 am 30
In response to druidity36 @ 29

It’s not erased — refresh your whole screen and you’ll see it is there. The blog code has some sort of weird hiccup in it that causes that to happen when you use any italics. Hasn’t been fixed yet by the tech folks…just remember to refresh your screen and you’ll see it reappears.


demi | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:53 am 31

I hope you have that on a macro. *g*


Christy Hardin Smith | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:54 am 32
In response to demi @ 31

I don’t, but I really should. *G*


Christy Hardin Smith | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:55 am 33
In response to dakine01 @ 25

It’s one of the many questions that will have to be answered in some way, depending on how this case is decided. How do you determine what apportionment to allow for a multi-national with a US division? Do you allow it? How do you determine what portion supports the US speech and what is “foreign interference” — or is it?

It’s an endless can of worms that could be opened, isn’t it?


foothillsmike | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:56 am 34

That isn’t the only glitch. “Show text ” does not work; edit does not work.


JamesJoyce | Wednesday September 9, 2009 06:57 am 35

The very issue here is corporate rights vs individual rights. With the passage of the 14th Amendment, due process rights where granted to corporations at the state level. The rights now secured by corporations where the same as Dred Scott and slaves ? However, where not the “limitations” wanted on corporations by Jefferson and Madison to curb the undue influence on policymaker, elected officials / Aristocrats less concerned with protecting the rights of individuals and the rule of law but more concerned with manipulation of law in the lust for profit.

Giving to corporations an advantage to use the corporate shell and its power to subvert the rights of others using the color of law and money under the guise of free speech was not what Jefferson or Madison wanted. It is what they feared!

State’s rights was the cry of the slave owner and the segregationist who for years argued “cost,” to the their why of life to justify the willful violation of individual rights. Policymakers manipulated by the undue influence of corporate blackmail, money, now equated with the free speech rights opposed to “merit based reasoning,” which often has little to due with money except to the extent it take money away from from “carpetbaggers” looking to game the system? No wonder you can’t by health insurance across state lines! State’s rights and corporate servitude enabled buy corporate identity??


Christy Hardin Smith | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:00 am 36
In response to foothillsmike @ 34

When we built the site for me, it was done pretty quickly because I needed the freedom to post whenever while Mr. ReddHedd’s dad was here with us. We figured we’d go live with it and work out the kinks on the back end. And then we just haven’t gotten back to the kinks because of the main page re-do. I’m not tech savvy enough to even know where to start, but one of these days…


klynn | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:02 am 37

My biggest difficulty with this case is examining the role of power in terms of individual rights being overshadowed by corporate power.

Our nation has a long history of corporations having more power than the individual. So much so that many legal battles have been fought in order to give the individual a voice level with the corporate voice. Cases involving employee rights, safe work environments, fair wages legislation and the development of many labor laws.

I thought, perhaps foolishly, that an underlying foundation to the Constitution was the idea of the balance of power to protect the individual.

Should this case end in favor of the corporations, I think the power of the individual voter has been destroyed and we can look at days where corporations used (and continue today to use) paid violence and paid pressure tactics to sway local/regional/national elections in order to put “their people” in office for ease in swaying local,state and national policies and law.

But I am just an average person and IANAL.


Christy Hardin Smith | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:03 am 38
In response to klynn @ 37

Read all of Doug Kendall’s op-ed and you’ll see that he walks through the balancing arguments on a lot of that from a progressive perspective on the Constitution and reaches a lot of the same conclusions. It’s well worth a full read from the link above to the LAtimes.


foothillsmike | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:03 am 39

I have Managed to cope with the glitches – don’t want to miss your highly valued posts.


JamesJoyce | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:06 am 40
In response to klynn @ 37

“Should this case end in favor of the corporations, I think the power of the individual voter has been destroyed and we can look at days where corporations used (and continue today to use) paid violence and paid pressure tactics to sway local/regional/national elections in order to put “their people” in office for ease in swaying local,state and national policies and law.”

Yep!


demi | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:11 am 41

Really, for me, the glitches are no big wow. I don’t think many people use the edit function very often. Considering the energy you put into your site, rolling up and down to view previous texts is such a minor effort. Besides, what’s a little scrolling amongst friends. Sometimes I actually catch a comment I missed the first time.


perris | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:13 am 42

roberts is doing what he was nurtured to do, he’s turning this into a corporate run government where corporations not only get special corporate umbrella protection but added personhood protection

this is a libertarians dream a fascist in the musilini difinition of the term as well

corporations enjoying constitutional protection, is frightening stuff, thom hartmann addressed this issue on the book salon


klynn | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:13 am 43

I meant to add to my comment, thank for the links Christy.

I get concerned for so many individuals should the “corporate” win. Many large corporations employ individuals with many political points-of-view. Should the corporate side win, individuals in our country will start to fully self-censor their political views due to concern of being blackballed in the work place for such different political views which are suppose to be protected. As soon as one knows their corp spent $$$ on an ad against or for a candidate or issue, they will never put that bumper sticker on their car or sign in their yard.

Blackballing can be done in an effective manner to never have the appearance of blackballing.

Self censorship is the end of free speech.


Christy Hardin Smith | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:15 am 44
In response to klynn @ 43

I wanted to do a much more thorough analysis on several of the briefs that have been filed in the case, etc., but this stomach ick has slowed me down. I thought some of the other analysis on this has been really good, and figured a link-around for you all was better than nothing while I try to quell the queasiness. So I hope it’s useful for folks…


kdoren | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:15 am 45

The current campaign finance law is clumsy and unenforceable except by assigning arbitrary rules regarding categories of speech. As much as I believe corporations have far too much influence on the political system, watering down free speech is a poor way of dealing with the issue.

There has never been a true constitutional debate about the role of corporations in public life, as there was for religions, for example. Corporations are not inherently evil. We all benefit from the efficiencies of their method of operation. However, while corporations existed when our constitution was written, they in no way resemble what the corporation has become today. So they were not mentioned. The better way to deal with the issue is to enact constitutional changes to define and limit the role of the corporation in our political life.

We need a kind of separation of corporation and state that would limit, but not entirely forbid, the corporation’s participation in our political arena. We could not entirely force them out, and, in any event, we truly would not want to. There are many laws and regulations that the much maligned “corporate lobbyist” have twisted to their own ends, and many of those laws are at opposition to the public good. Nevertheless, without corporate participation in forging the rules and regulations, our complex modern society would be impossible to sustain.

Arbitrary restrictions on what can and cannot be broadcast during political campaigns is a poor way to dealing the real issues of corporate participation in public affairs. It obviously doesn’t work: look at the “health care” debate and the wholesale looting of the treasury by banks and insurance companies “too big to fail” for the latest two examples. We have just seen the most expensive presidential campaign in our history; that did not come out of the pockets of Joe and Jane internet contributors.

Besides, the case revolves around a DVD and pay-for-view “documentary” of Hillary Clinton, that old, barnstorming, anti-corporate, populist Hillary Clinton. BHO did not even participate in the campaign financing system. Who is kidding whom?

Could we enact a constitutional amendment to define the separation between corporation and state? Probably not now, as least not the kind of limit I would like to see. Yet, once started, maybe the idea can take hold and grow. The words of our Constitution offered the right to freedom and suffrage to everyone, but it is taking some time to realize those ideals fully. Yet none of the progress that has taken place would have been realized if the promise was not first expressed.


klynn | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:16 am 46
In response to klynn @ 43

When I state blackballing, I mean excessive documenting of an employee’s work behavior in the effort to fire the individual. Even to the point of giving the employee responsibilities that only have one result: failure.


demi | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:20 am 47
In response to klynn @ 46

And, to make it worse, in this “economic downturn” (cough, spit) with ever-rising unemployment, the corporate minds (spit, again) can really turn the screws to the employees. You don’t like it here? There’s the door, pal.


Christy Hardin Smith | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:21 am 48
In response to kdoren @ 45

Honestly, the only real way of addressing any of this is public financing of campaigns. And, given how peachy the whole health care discussion has gone, what do you think the odds are that public financing will get serious discussion any time soon?

SIGH


NorskeFlamethrower | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:21 am 49

Citizen Hardin Smith:

I remember when you spanked my hands for sayin’ that the whole idea of “rule of law” and equal protection under the law was killed when corporations were given human rights under the Bill of rights…and now we come down to it! When the entire 200+ year history of constitutional government hangs on the intellectual integrity of a Catholic legal hack like Justice Kennedy, we are righteously fucked.


klynn | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:24 am 50
In response to demi @ 47

I still do not see how the corporate is defined as individual. I “hear” the arguments but the flow of power in our society reflects a history for me of, “Give the corporate individual rights, you destroy individual rights.”

You destroy democracy.


Christy Hardin Smith | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:25 am 51
In response to NorskeFlamethrower @ 49

Welcome to the world that Roberts and Alito hath wrought, where all your legal nightmares can come true if you only believe hard enough.

Is it beer thirty yet?


NorskeFlamethrower | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:27 am 52
In response to kdoren @ 45

Citizen kdoren:

The debate over the role of the power of wealth and by extension the power of the corporation took place over several decades in the second half of the 18th century and was pretty well settled until the SCOTUS turned it upside down in the Golden Age.


klynn | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:32 am 53

Christy,

Hope you get better. We have a bug going through our house with one child home.


OldFatGuy | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:33 am 54

Am I the only one that has an inkling of hope in this??

I mean, I’ll admit, if I had to bet, I’d bet on the bad outcome. And usually, I’m the pessimist in the crowd. But for some reason, I do feel a slight bit of hope on this.

But truth be told, I think the good NorskeFlamethrower hit the nail on the head with the Kennedy quote above.

Oh well, gotta have some hope, don’t we??

I mean I really, really, feel if they rule wrong on this that it renders all the other fights we fight obsolete. We’ll have parked the car in that facist garage that Sara Robinson has written so well about. IMO at least.


PeasantParty | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:37 am 55
In response to klynn @ 37

Your words are exactly true! If the court sides with corporations then individuals will have to fight for the same protections and tax perks.

At this very moment the corporations have better bankrupt laws, tax deductions, buying power, negotiating power, and the list goes on. If the court does give in to corporate hedgemony, then they have to redo the laws for citizens. Otherwise, we will all truly become nothing more that peasant serfs.


perris | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:39 am 56

great stuff there, he gave us permission for posting this in entiretfrom thom harmann

Fascism Coming to a Court Near You
Corporate Personhood and the Roberts’ Court
by Thom Hartmann

As the 1983 American Heritage Dictionary noted, fascism is: “A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism.”

Get ready.

Last year a right-wing group put together a 90-minute hit-job on Hillary Clinton, and wanted to run it on TV stations in strategic states. The Federal Election Commission ruled that the “documentary” was actually a “campaign ad” and thus fell under the restrictions on campaign spending of McCain-Feingold, and thus stopped it from airing. (Corporate contributions to campaigns have been banned repeatedly and in various ways since 1907 when Teddy Roosevelt pushed through the Tillman Act.)

read the entire article, great stuff there


perris | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:41 am 57
In response to PeasantParty @ 55

Your words are exactly true! If the court sides with corporations then individuals will have to fight for the same protections and tax perks.

you would think that if we could expect an even hand from either roberts or alito

however that expectation is flawed, alito has demonstrated with exact cases but differant sides of the decision, he will always decide on behalf of the corporate benefit


perris | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:44 am 58
In response to perris @ 57

an important exerpt from that article, bolds are mine;

As Jeffrey Toobin wrote in The New Yorker (”No More Mr. Nice Guy”): “In every major case since he became the nation’s seventeenth Chief Justice, Roberts has sided with the prosecution over the defendant, the state over the condemned, the executive branch over the legislative, and the corporate defendant over the individual plaintiff. Even more than Scalia, who has embodied judicial conservatism during a generation of service on the Supreme Court, Roberts has served the interests, and reflected the values, of the contemporary Republican Party.”

it doesn’t matter that he decides on case in one direction, he will reverse direction if the opposite position represents corporate interest


DWBartoo | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:56 am 59
In response to PeasantParty @ 55

Good morning, to all.

The citizenry as “peasant serfs”?

Now, PP, if you wanted to bring about another feudal age (a ‘clever move’ for the ‘end times’) you wouldn’t want the ‘folks’ to have the power, or means to get uppity, now would you?

Also, none of this happened by “accident”.

It took long, diligent ‘effort’, and lots and lots of lies.

But the public was happy with the lies, since they ‘believed’ some one else would, ultimately, pay for all the happy horseshit …

The public was wrong. Poor suckers.

And, about now, things are gonna get very interesting.

;~DW


WNCBlue | Wednesday September 9, 2009 07:59 am 60

Hi, everyone – first time posting.

Corporations are entities that only exist with permission from state governments, right?

Could states offer a solution to this by requiring corporate charters to include a clause in which corporations gave up the right to spend money directly on campaigns?


OldFatGuy | Wednesday September 9, 2009 08:04 am 61
In response to WNCBlue @ 60

Welcome!!!

And that’s a great question. I don’t have the answer.

Unfortunately however, even if that were a solution, I fear no way in hell all 50 would do so. So the corporations in states that did would just re-file as corporations into a state that didn’t.

I think most are filed in Delaware (I know that was true at one point, not sure now), even though obviously most don’t “operate” out of Delaware.


PeasantParty | Wednesday September 9, 2009 08:09 am 62
In response to DWBartoo @ 59

Hey, I’ve been living the “uppity” life for years. It was not until Bush/Cheney that the veil was removed and I began to see clearly. If you are not in power circles, you are just another peasant.

Oh yeah, pitchforks in the virtual manner are pointed. I really am made as hell.


DWBartoo | Wednesday September 9, 2009 08:24 am 63
In response to PeasantParty @ 62

Well, PP, as our own Eli has remarked, on occasion,”Anger can be energy.”

But to the point: It doesn’t matter, henceforth, what the Ruling Cla$$ and their fawning helpmates, the Political Cla$$, do …

What will matter … is what individuals, human beings, alone and in concert, find the courage AND stamina to do.

Consider that the vast majority of our fellow citizens do not yet grasp the full magnitude of the Perfect Shit Storm which is about to engulf our nation and, perhaps, the entire world.

At least we may have the satisfaction of knowing that our work is cut out for us.

;~DW


PeasantParty | Wednesday September 9, 2009 08:38 am 64
In response to DWBartoo @ 63

Yes, Eli is someone that evokes anger. I guess that the anger is sufficient now. Progressives will start acting like crazied goopers. Maybe that is exactly what it’s going to take to shut them up and trip them over!


konnie | Wednesday September 9, 2009 09:01 am 65

didn’t anyone here watch Front Line last nite on pbs with Bill Moyers/National Treasure?
if you would have you would have all the answers to your questions. by the time it was
over i was so angry i wanted to spit. this is a true gotcha case, if the right wing of
the court sides with the free speech side our elections will become just another corporate
entity, and you can kiss any thought of citizens rights, free and fair elections (as if they
ever existed after 1789) good by forever. the corporations will own the government lock
stocl and barrel…and
you can kiss any thought of going up against them goodby too. clean water…..clean air…
global warming……safety issues……human rights…….compensation……….energy……..


klynn | Wednesday September 9, 2009 09:03 am 66
In response to WNCBlue @ 60

Corporations are entities that only exist with permission from state governments, right?

Great observation and a key point to defining “individual”. I, the individual, simple exist, state government or not.

So, are we looking at the “life” part of “life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness’ for all created equally?


xyno | Wednesday September 9, 2009 09:21 am 67

Time for a simple constitutional amendment, one even Joe sixpack might be able to wrap his head around and support:

Corporations are not persons. Money is not speech.


DWBartoo | Wednesday September 9, 2009 09:22 am 68
In response to PeasantParty @ 64

Behaving like the uncivil, deliberately arrogant, and studiously ignorant is hardly a solution, PP.

It would be wise for “liberal” or “progressive” people to STOP being obsequiously polite to those who stir up the passions and violence of those of the ruffian mentality, however.

It would be equally wise to L’s and P’s to insist that we have actual. PARTICIPATORY democracy, even if the Ruling Clla$$ AND the Political Cla$$ want no such thing.

Of course, such insistence must be ‘polite’ (considering the ‘nature’ of the ‘resistance’ it meets). We have to keep our ‘options’ open, obviously.

But it also must be meant. Very Seriously

In a time when MONEY is all that matters, this poses a bit of a challenge.

This insistence, paid for, at what it shall cost, by the people, is the only thing, on the moral level (and in the real world) that will actually change anything.

Perhaps it is time for the people of the world to take a firm hand in deciding what their future shall be?

Of course the major’ institutions’, the universities, the great religions, and especially those very special ‘persons’, the all-conquering corporations are not going to like it.

The Divine Right of Money is, however, like the earlier “divine right of kings”, subject to change.

It is just that no one “believes’ that, at the moment.

Yet, even as we ponder, the Earth is shifting and moving …

(I prefer to regard Eli as ‘thought provoking’, btw PP)

DW


VJBinCT | Wednesday September 9, 2009 09:35 am 69

I propose instituting naming rights for supreme court justice seats. Up for auction every 3 years, never to coincide with a presidential election. The justice to get a standard federal salary plus annual bonus and stock options in the naming corporation dependent on performance on behalf of the naming corporation, not to exceed 10 per cent of the seat’s purchase cost. After two consecutive three year terms the naming corporation shall have the right to terminate a non-performing justice and to install a suitable replacement.


DWBartoo | Wednesday September 9, 2009 09:39 am 70
In response to VJBinCT @ 69

Ah ha!

An eleventy-eleven-level chess player.

VJ, I see a bright future for you.

A very bright future indeed.

Oh … you were snarking … still …

DW


BargainCountertenor | Wednesday September 9, 2009 09:45 am 71
In response to OldFatGuy @ 61

We could enable that by Constitutional amendment requiring Corporations operating in a state be chartered in that state. Actually, since Congress has the power to regulate interstate commerce, it could probably be done in statute. But that isn’t happening with a Congress dominated by corporate interests.

The real answer is in two parts: public financing of all campaigns, and non-partisan districting.


redX | Wednesday September 9, 2009 10:28 am 72

Sorry to have missed this until now.
I do not have time, but had collected some snips from around the web (other posters) yesterday that are relevent.

Select items from that HuffPo, but I would love to see the minds here attach this in a thread and do some pre-emptive ground work (thank you for making this happen).

The notion of corporate citizenship essentially gives the members of the boards of major corporations (usually consisting of upper management) super powers in our democracy since, using seemingly unlimited corporate resources, they’d be able promote public policy that benefits themselves at the expense of their stockholders, customers and employees.

It would take years, or perhaps decades, to get it enacted–but whether or not the Supreme Court rules in favor of corporate citizenship, we need to write, promote, and pass a constitutional amendment to end such corporate engagement in politics entirely and permanently. Our constitution protects the rights of individuals, not paper entities.
-cjo30080

I hate to be an alarmist but a systemic change this fundamental will eviscerate our democracy, which is exactly the goal. The Federalists believe in a plutocracy not a democracy. Destroying the rough and tumble of the citizen politics and handing it all over to the ‘philosopher kings’ who grace our corporate offices, moneyed insitutions, and wealthy families is the point of these changes.

We will never survive these changes. Presidents’ Reagan, Bush I & II, knew this when they packed the courts with these little lord fauntleroies and radical conservatives. While they were manipulating the fundamentalists to raise their pitchforks over packing the Supreme Court with anti-abortion justices, in truth, they were going for this prize which is what these justices were selected to do. The fundamentalists? They were played for suckers by the moneyed interests in this country like that alway are.
-jazzman

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/07/06-0

As Jeffrey Toobin wrote in The New Yorker (”No More Mr. Nice Guy”): “In every major case since he became the nation’s seventeenth Chief Justice, Roberts has sided with the prosecution over the defendant, the state over the condemned, the executive branch over the legislative, and the corporate defendant over the individual plaintiff. Even more than Scalia, who has embodied judicial conservatism during a generation of service on the Supreme Court, Roberts has served the interests, and reflected the values, of the contemporary Republican Party.”

And the only way the modern Republican Party can recover their power over the next decade is to immediately clear away all impediments to unrestrained corporate participation in electoral politics. If a corporation likes a politician, they can make sure he or she is elected every time; if they become upset with a politician, they can carpet-bomb her district with a few million dollars worth of ads and politically destroy her.


cinnamonape | Wednesday September 9, 2009 10:33 am 73

An interesting extension to the “corporations are individuals” argument. What is government but a large corporation? If the SCOTUS argue that corporations may participate in the electoral process by making contributions then doesn’t it open the door for the State itself, as a grand uber-corporation, to promote specific candidates or positions? It seems to me that laws denying such would be “unconstitutional”. Yet this has been a fundamental of our society for a hundreds years- the separation of state agencies from the political campaign process was long viewed as the very essence of banana republics.

Certainly politicians and Administrations have “free speech” but can they legally expend money to advocate a political position or support their re-election? By the “cash is speech
” and “corporate entities are persons” framework this is a logical outcome.


cinnamonape | Wednesday September 9, 2009 10:37 am 74
In response to BargainCountertenor @ 71

One addition step would be: only CITIZENS can make contributions to political campaigns or issues that are imminently facing a vote (initiatives, referenda, etc.). Once a petition is being pushed on sue of public concern…once money is being contributed to that initiative process or ads being run thfluence an election…no one but real citizens can put $$$ in.

The next step is to limit the amounts.


Styve | Wednesday September 9, 2009 11:02 am 75

EJ Dionne had a great piece out this morning on this SCOTUS matter, in which he said that Roberts is really bound by his 2005 Confirmation hearings statements about respect for precedent. The Op-ed can be read at http://www.oregonlive.com/opin….._test.html .

Some teasers…

The full impact of what the court could do in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission has only begun to receive the attention it deserves. Even the word “radical” does not capture the extent to which the justices could turn our political system upside down. Will it use a case originally brought on a narrow issue to bring our politics back to the corruption of the Gilded Age?
[…]
Instead of deciding the case before it, the court engaged in a remarkable act of overreach. On June 29, it postponed a decision and called for new briefs and a highly unusual new hearing, which is Wednesday’s big event. The court chose to consider an issue only tangentially raised by the case. It threatens to overrule a 1990 decision that upheld the long-standing ban on corporate money in campaigns.

I don’t have the space to cite all the precedents the court would have to set aside, going back to the Buckley campaign finance ruling in 1976, if it threw out the prohibition on corporate money. Suffice it to say that there is one member of the court who has spoken eloquently about the dangers of ignoring precedents. [take a guess who he’s referring to…]
[…]
He learnedly cited Alexander Hamilton who wrote in Federalist 78: “To avoid an arbitrary discretion in the judges, they need to be bound down by rules and precedents.”

Chief Justice John Roberts, the likely swing vote in this case, was exactly right when he said these things during his 2005 confirmation hearings. If he uses his own standards, it is impossible to see how he can justify the use of “arbitrary discretion” to discard a well-established system whose construction began with the Tillman Act of 1907.

Were the courts that set the earlier precedents “legitimate”?This ban was upheld over many years by justices of a variety of philosophical leanings.
[…]
Are the precedents “workable”? The answer is clearly yes, which is why there is absolutely no popular demand to let corporate cash loose into our politics. […]
Has the precedent been “eroded”? Absolutely not. In case after case, no matter where particular court majorities stood on particular campaign finance provisions, the ban on corporate contributions was taken for granted.

continued~~


Styve | Wednesday September 9, 2009 11:25 am 76

I believe that Sotomayor will be an admirable counterbalance to Scalia, Roberts and Alito.


redX | Wednesday September 9, 2009 11:34 am 77

This is exactly the point – the real debate is to swing things to the other side and look for fairness, market place of ideas, and evolution. Instead they are going to try and bum rush this through while everyone is up in arms about a possible feeble triggered public option.

SCOUTS does the dirty work while everyone looks at the shiny object (be it abortion or flag burning…potentially important things, but not with the massive impact of so of the real bizness getting done).

One point since I did not see it:

person = corporation
human person = a “real” person

Kind of stupid, but the only way to avoid most of this is to explictly put in “human” person.


redX | Wednesday September 9, 2009 11:35 am 78

@76

I do not think one moderate (who leans right on a scale devised by a sane person) is going to balance 3 hardcode right justices (one of whom is the cheif justice).


redX | Wednesday September 9, 2009 11:37 am 79
In response to NorskeFlamethrower @ 49

Its will be all over. One of the quotes I had from another poster on another site:

summary:
What would stop a corp from giving 4 million to their guy/gal – then if they did not act the way they wanted they just dump 4 million into the next stooge.

We need to be going in the other direction a few miles, but all this train wreck to the right (facism) really does is make the pols higher prices whores.


redX | Wednesday September 9, 2009 11:44 am 80
In response to konnie @ 65

You can get the iTunes Bill Moyers journal on this topic, or I am sure check the Frontline site.

There are also blurbs up on NPR type shows today, though I am sure that is quite thin.

NPR has been in heavy corp whore mode lately with how they are framing their stories so I am not listening much.


redX | Wednesday September 9, 2009 11:50 am 81
In response to Styve @ 75

LOL – Roberts is “bound”…no. As I and many others said during his hearing (in disgust that some many dems would vote for him) – he will do whatever the hell he wants.

The quote above shows that analysis has proven his an a activist judge intent on overturning things for the next 40 years (and implementing new fxcked up shxt).

-
Ammend the constitution and put “human person” for any refernce to “person”.


VJBinCT | Wednesday September 9, 2009 12:50 pm 82
In response to DWBartoo @ 70

Ah DW, you thought it was snark, but it was a Boojum, you see.


DWBartoo | Thursday September 10, 2009 05:00 am 83
In response to VJBinCT @ 82

;~)

We be hunting for Boojums, VJ, old Lewis and I.

(Liking the cut of your funny-bone jib, verra much-ly)

DW


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