Morning gang. Lots of flower watering here this morning. The hot, humid ick continues in my neighborhood. How are things with everyone else?

Good morning, Christie. That is a very powerful video and it’s a good thing that ACLU is doing the petition drive. The sad state of evidence against these prisoners shows how depraved the entire effort at Guantanamo is.

Hot and humid here to. We had a health care forum here in Marshalltown, Iowa hosted by the OFA group yesterday. The thunderstorm outside cooled things off a bit.

If you read Spencer’s article from last night — it’s linked above as the last link — you’ll see the need for pushing full accountability and not just scapegoating the folks at the bottom end of the decisionmaking.

How did the town hall go? Good back and forth or a lot of screeching and not much discussion? Sadly, it seems they all divide up into one of those two categories. Personally, I’d like a lot more of the former and a lot less of the latter…

Yes, that and Marcy’s post on torture yesterday were both very good. I also came to the conclusion last night that the source of the “the torturers weren’t told what was in the memos” leak to the LA Times had to be Kiriakou. That one just smells like his brand of disinformation, even if he is now working for a Congressional committee.

btw, for folks who were fans of The Wire like I was, there are a couple of fabulous actors from the show doing part of the reading in the above video.

There has been so much CYA leaking the last few weeks on all of this that it is beginning to smell like an internal push from a core group of people who are deflecting speculation. At least that’s how its been feeling to me. The question is, who all is in that core? And, more importantly, why? And at whose direction?

Powerful video, and post.

Mornin’, Christy, pups.

Signed. Wish I could drag Holder by the collar and make him sit down and watch it. And Obama and DOJ in its entirety. Holding people accountable for their behaviour is moving forward. Assholes.

Is the rumored appointment by Holder of a special prosecutor just another Abu Graib type of investigation that will result in the lowest on the totum pole being offered up as sacrificial lambs?

And I hope they go after Prince/Blackwater like crazy….all that money, cruelty, lies. What has happened to us?

Thanks, Carolyn. I thought the tone of Judge Kollar-Kotelly’s entire memorandum opinion matched how I was feeling completely.

If I’d tried to go to trial with this little in hand in terms of evidence, my local judges would have laid me out publicly in the courtroom. The fact that years have gone by without shoring things up and, in this particular case, the one piece of really damning evidence they thought they had on this defendent turned out to be due to a tyopgraphical error — they transposed his detainee ID number for someone else’s and the thing he’d been accused of turned out to have been perpetrated by someone else. They knew it for quite a while, but it didn’t really come out until this habeas proceeding moved forward, apparently.

Justice is about more than just winning a case. The fact that we appear to have forgotten that entirely? Unforgiveable in my book.

I wish we could move forward without having to address the sins of the past — but we can’t because we are continuing to commit them. Without some wholesale review, accountability and redirection, I’m afraid we’ll be stuck right here in a rule of law repudiation cycle.

And that’s not acceptable for me.

Spencer had some insight on that last night. And it doesn’t look good, just FYI, without some substantial outside push for something more.

A lot of people see it that way, or even with there being a decision that even the low level ones can’t be convicted, so the prosecutor thing won’t happen. Others are saying that once the low level prosecutions start, evidence against high level people will come in that is so compelling that even they will have to be prosecuted. I fear the former is more likely but hold out hope for the latter. Sadly, a real sense of justice at the Department of Justice still doesn’t exist.

The thing is, there have always been bad actors in government. Always. The difference between then and now is that, in the past at least, there were decent people who stood up and demanded accountability and shamed the bad actors with their behavior. In the current climate, the bad acts have become the norm — how do you shame someone for being just as skeezy as the next guy?

This is because the bad acts came from the top, directed from there. The bad example was set from the highest reaches of government and it permeated not just the particular branch(es) of government, but all of our culture.

We have become the thing we said we were fighting against and, in doing so, we have validated — not repudiated — the very acts we used to be able to say we find abhorrent. We can no longer say that, because we’ve perpetrated those selfsame abhorrent acts — repeatedly. Which leaves our military and governmental personnel incredibly vulnerable. We have no leg to stand on to protest if they are captured and tortured or imprisoned without trial.

We have become that which we fought so hard to vanquish in WWII and beyond.

We watched Key Largo the other night and that was the entire theme, Bogy vs Edward G. Robinson. . . .”we fought to rid the world of Johnny Rocco’s and this is what we get”!

The level of unconstitutionality, equating association with criminality, that the Holy Land Foundation Trial reached is shown again in the DoJ memos. During its years of throwing aside law to pursue any form it interpreted as terrorism the DoJ disgraced this country.

It’s sad, but there you are. And I have no idea how to rectify this except to expose the bad acts for what they really were — and to hold those perpetrating them to account at the highest levels, just as we did at Nuremberg and beyond.

To do otherwise would say that we hold the rest of the world to one standard, but allow ourselves an entirely different one for which there is no accountability. That’s simply unworkable over the long run, and a recipe for disaster in terms of policy and diplomacy.

Yes, always bad actors, but Nixon et al got the boot. These days the bribes and corruption + those involved seem so blatant and pervasive. LBJ was shamed out of office (see Cronkite) b/c VietNam….criminal W got 8 years run with no pushback. Not good.

Just saw the video were they all reading from the same page word for word in order?

Exactly so — the last thing you want is to leave the impression that corruption pays when you perpetrate it on the large scale.

When the ACLU does something else especially great, like this, I send them money.
I urge you all to use this opportunity to get into that habit.

http://www.aclu.com/

In a word….the Emperor has no clothes, and the world can see that. Remember when Bush 1st said he wanted to see dignity restored to the Oval Office post Clinton. Ya’ think he’s proud?

Likely they all read the whole of it, and then they spliced together the various snippets in order afterward as they found clips they thought were most effective. That’s a pretty common technique.

Is there anything proceeding in the Spanish courts?

Nothing that’s going to end up doing anything. We can’t rely on someone from the outside to clean up our mess — and they aren’t likely to do so. The world is watching us to see if we do the thing we’re always harping at other nation’s to do: hold ourselves accountable.

I thought that is what they did but with the disjointedness of the speech I just thought I would ask.

“He wants more, doncha ya Johnny?”
They all do.

I would like to meaningfully address these sins of our past. I think it is necessary both in terms of our own nation’s soul and reestablishing our moral standing in the world. But having said that, I am at a loss as to how to proceed in a manner that would lead to a positive outcome, given our current over-heated political milieu.

I guess the insanity of the birthers and deathers has me down this morning. How do we get out of this vortex of stupidity?

>If I’d tried to go to trial with this little in hand in terms of evidence, my local judges would have laid me out publicly in the courtroom. The fact that years have gone by without shoring things up and, in this particular case, the one piece of really damning evidence they thought they had on this defendent turned out to be due to a tyopgraphical error — they transposed his detainee ID number for someone else’s and the thing he’d been accused of turned out to have been perpetrated by someone else. They knew it for quite a while, but it didn’t really come out until this habeas proceeding moved forward, apparently.

My bold if we can ever get the media to cover this story that is the point I would stress. We really don’t have proof.

Knowing that you are not one of them and you didn’t make them be stupid should help you feel better. Shine that light.

Good morning, Christy. Always found this version of the torture memo to be pretty moving.

Isn’t it ironic that WE can see all this and the people in power remain completely and studiously blind to it? I wrote to Joe Biden when he enthusiastically voted for Negroponte for the ambassador to Iraq.

Because, see I was supportive of the Sanctuary Movement in the 80’s when Negroponte was looking the other way while we trained thugs in The School of the Americas. These are the CIA supported CIA supported thugs who dropped nuns from airplanes, assassinated a saint (Archbishop Romero), and annihilated entire villages of babies, women and old people.

Years later, when Paul Wellstone questioned Negroponte during an ambassadorship to the United Nations, Negroponte pretended was not aware of what was going on where he freaking lived as an American Ambassador. He looked the other way and “didn’t know” so he claimed.. This mass murdering spread to Guatemala, Nicaragua, and other S American countries simply for having the audacity for poor people to band together and try to survive using Liberation Theology. God fobid if the Rich few families didn’t have their slave labor to harvest their bananas, coffee, and chocolate! Interestingly, within 2 weeks after Negroponte landed in Iraq, the death squads began anew again.

But hey, did anyone in power or the media notice and connect the dots? Oh noes! We have to pretend we don’t see such atrocities.

So now when torture happens well prosecute a couple low level soldiers and “There! All better!”

Then we wondery why the U.S. is so hated abroad …

Cat In Seattle

This is a powerful ad. Thank you for posting it. I am at a loss how anyone could watch it and not be chilled by the words spoken, but then again, I have been at a loss for much of the past 8 years as to all the rationale that was set forth for trampling upon the rule of law, and at all the people who enthusiastically supported said trampling.

Sorry for the delay. I was on a conference call.

We had some of both. The OFA people divided us into groups after the introduction and had us discuss question from the agenda for about 15 minutes. Then we joined back to discuss as a group. The small groups proceeded civily. I expect that’s because like minded people tended to group together.

During the group discussion, the tea baggers were unable to stick to the agenda. They expressed their distrust of the government and their expectation that taxes would be raised and misused. This was acompanied by red faced ranting about tort reforms and waits for joint repairs in Canada. They also complained about Medicare and VA care, but were unwilling to give up either. They were afraid that the government would deny them care (because they’re old and their lives are less valuble), but don’t recognise that insurance companies are doing this now regardless of age.

i have been thinking just what would LBJ, the consummate legislator/hardball player, do to get health care reform passed? perhaps he would call in all the so-called republican congressmen and women and tell them, call off the attack dogs, help us pass reform or i will strongly encourage my attorney general to begin full investigations of torture, renditions, justice dept. politicizing and cia lies no matter where it takes us!

president obama did not want to “look backward” at all gwb/cheney/valerie plame/cia/blackwater did to this country for fear of tearing the country apart when he wanted to get health care reform passed; well, guess what? it already is now and still no investigations.

Hadifia proves beyond any doubt about the ability to judge and cleanse ourselves.

The Torture/ Murder/ Treason must be judged by the world in a Nuremburg setting or the International Criminal Court, after all we tortured in so many countries and so many nationalities this isn’t only about Iraq and Afghanistan.

The tortured would like to receive Justice while they still breath rather than posthumously. Nine months to start an investigation is beyond acceptable, it’s also criminal.

Amen ~ the WORLD needs to try these war criminals if we won’t take the responisbility to do it ourselves. These thugs have been at it for 30 years, starting with the Reagan era in S American right up to now. They ALL should be held accountable whether this is “looking back” or not!

Cat In Seattle

Sadly, I think the answer is yes.

Oops. For me it’s the end of a long day. Bush 1 no, Bush 2 yes.

Eric Holder, Obama, Leahy, Whitehouse, Feinstein “no one is above the law”
I want to believe

You say there’s “insufficient evidence” to hold these guys? Well, hey, that’s why we need to torture them, to get the goods on them. It’s a no-brainer. Back to the 14th century.

Water-boarding creates the “perception” of suffocation/drowning. The person perceives it because that it what is happening.
One thing this very effective video doesn’t convey is the effect of these torture techniques when used repeatedly over a long term, especially with extreme isolation. The victim’s mind is destroyed.

During these many years of detention, and all the subsequent hearings, proceedings, filings, defense evidentiary challenges, and up to and including demands directly from Judge Kollar-Kotelly — no newbie to intel proceedings, having just finished a term as the head of the FISA Court — for particulars on evidentiary issues of questionable detail and firmness?

Am I missing something, or does the foregoing collection of words lack a verb somewhere that would make it an English sentence?

Sorry for the double post. Apparently the commenting software has an occasional taste for italic food.

During these many years of detention, and all the subsequent hearings, proceedings, filings, defense evidentiary challenges, and up to and including demands directly from Judge Kollar-Kotelly — no newbie to intel proceedings, having just finished a term as the head of the FISA Court — for particulars on evidentiary issues of questionable detail and firmness?

Am I missing something, or does the foregoing collection of words lack a verb somewhere that would make it an English sentence?

Third time’s the charm? Maybe a block quote will survive the comment software’s ravenous maw.

During these many years of detention, and all the subsequent hearings, proceedings, filings, defense evidentiary challenges, and up to and including demands directly from Judge Kollar-Kotelly — no newbie to intel proceedings, having just finished a term as the head of the FISA Court — for particulars on evidentiary issues of questionable detail and firmness?

Am I missing something, or does the foregoing collection of words lack a verb somewhere that would make it an English sentence?

Christy,
Thanks for writing about this. There is something really wrong going on here, and it needs to be more widely known. Your diary helps!

Bob in HI