Morning all — how is everyone this morning? Looks like it will be another lovely day here with possibilities for big thunderboomers.

Does the fact that Koh finally got through signal any sort of breakthrough?

There was some sort of comprehensive push from State in the last few weeks. I’ve been poking around about Justice, but I’m not getting the same feel on those outstanding nominations.

I think the bottom line was that there was more support built for Koh, and they jumped on it. But that there hasn’t been the same level of push for Johnsen and others at DOJ, which says that same potential for movement isn’t there. Yet.

A nudge from someone might get that ball rolling. But I haven’t been able to prise loose a good nudge from anyone as yet. Hence my peevish tone, I suppose.

I’d love to think there is some real leadership on this out there because this is so important. But I’m trying to learn not to hope for it and then be pleasantly surprised if and when it happens. My sources are all telling me they aren’t seeing any change as yet — but it’s always tough to know if they just aren’t in the loop or if there really isn’t any change. Especially since Dawn’s been in DC, and has met — I hear — with Arlen Specter and a couple of others on the Hill. I’ll let you all know when I hear anything beyond that, but right now it’s still stalled as far as I’ve heard.

When will the dems stop with their mantra of “bi-partisan” and start playing hard ball? Hell wiffle ball would be an improvement of what we have been getting for the last couple of decades.

That quote on David Hamilton’s nomination from the McClatchy article above just sent me through the roof. Jeebus, do people learn no lessons whatsoever from reality?

Morning Christy. I’m so sick of the “b” word. For the Repubs it means give in to our demands since we are the adults and know better, and for the Dems it means let’s compromise our ideals so we don’t upset the indys we need for the next election.

I know. Bipartisan zombie-ism must die.

Really nice pic. Such a cutie.

Isn’t it a gorgeous shot? Donna’s work is so amazing.

Looks just like the little faces I see every evening. Got a newbie adult day before yesterday. Still real shy and will only take a nut from the dish on the ground.

Screw “consulting” and just bloody well get. it. done! I’m with Christy on being in a pissy mood…….and the foot draggin’ on Franken ain’t helping any in that respect.

Off on errands; scratch any hope of something approximating news on the idjit box today…and the foreseeable future. :-(

I predict Sanford resigns today – politically, what better time to take the bow?

I am unhappy with squirrels at the moment, so all I saw in that pic is the critters who keep digging in my deck flowerpots and spreading dirt all over and flipping the newly planted annuals out. Despite liberal doses of that spray repellent. Grrr.

Sorry to grumble before saying hello. G’morning everyone. Hot here in NW Indiana today, but down some from the past two days’ mid-90s, I think. I’m not even complaining much because until this week we had cool, cloudy wet weather.

I have a gazillion squirrels here. Last winter they got under the hood and chewed up a bunch of wires. $500 + repair bill. Want to talk about unhappy.

Yeah, I guess that beats my dirt on the deck gripe….

It is a systemic problem. The rules of the Senate are antiquated. The financing mechanisms for Senate campaigns are corrupt. This nasty combination favors the
the status quo over progress and the haves over the have nots.

Mornin’ Christy and Firedogs,

squirrely o/t

Jeebus, do people learn no lessons whatsoever from reality?

why no, why do you ask ?

Hi Christy and Pups.

Good Dawg, Christy! Did you ever study fencing? Talk about rapier wit. Whoot! Eviscerated before they knew u were in the building. Heh.

I am frustrated by a lot of the Dems, but utterly fed up with the Repug idea of bidness as usual. These are frightening times, desperate times for so many whose very survival is at stake, held hostage to all this nonsense.

The Repug. trenchmouth crew need to get a heart, a good measure of soul, and a brain. Their “games” are an abomination and a disgrace. When will they stand up like grownups and join the human race?!

Keep up the good work Redd. We’ve got yer back. ;->

keep the heat on dems to get johnsen confirmed…though i have a sneaky suspician the obama’s folks think she may have a bit too much integrity for their purposes…we’ll see, eh…

The financing mechanisms for Senate campaigns are corrupt.

Methinks you left out another ‘House’ of corruption in your post.

In fact, 2 year terms are the worst because the need to raise funds literally never stops.

I think we have the same squirrels at our house. I’ve started throwing down a handful of peanuts in an area far away from everything I don’t want them to dig up — including my little garden patch — and that has been diverting enough that my beans have had a chance to sprout instead of being snacked on at least.

But it’s a constant, never-ending battle with the little buggers. *g*

I’m not greedy, I’d just like to see someone kicking some rule of law ass. That’s all. *g*

OT, but snarky.

From Think Progress:

“In reversal, Specter announces support for public health insurance option. “

Amazing what the power of polling can do!

It really does come down, on so many levels, to campaign finance reform. And how to deal with that when the very people who benefit from status quo have to be the ones to change it is an impossible puzzle. SIGH

Squirrels here have formed gangs. If I were to throw down a handful of peanuts I would have a brawl.

I did actually take a fencing class in college once. It was not pretty, let me tell you, but I loved it. *G*

I just had the funniest mental image of a Sharks vs. Jets squirrel extravaganza. hehehehehe Thanks for the giggle.

Specter will have the opportunity to change his mind several times before it comes to a vote.

Damn Christy you covered it here
“Further, when governance becomes more about covering your complicity, keeping things moving for your hefty donor database participants and trying not to make waves? Who thinks of that as actually governing?”

“machego and port” here at Christy’s
“cheetos and Yingacheffe” over at EW’s

for a minute I thought I was at a food blog

Thanks for staying on us Christy

Specter’s support for the public option is probably the kiss of death, he is waving a flag of support because he knows it will have no chance of passing.

Good morning all. I don’t believe for a minute that Rahm and the rest of the White House crew have any expectation of any kind of cooperation from the thugs. It’s hard to believe any (or at least more than a very few) Senate Dems do either. That leaves two explanations: either the Dems are scared stiff that the Republicans will do to them what they did in the late 1980s and 1990s, and are bending over backwards to keep ‘it’ from happening. That’s the battered wife explanation. The other, which applies manly to the Administration, is the ‘giving them enough rope to hang themselves.’ This takes the patience of Solomon, which few of us here have. I’m hoping the explanation is the second, and not the first.

I would be a bit concerned about attracting other undesirable critters if I start putting food out. Although I’m not exactly out in the country, my subdivision is very wooded and there are lots of little beasties around. Not to mention the usual rodents and ants.

I also discovered a couple of impatiens uprooted from my flower beds with their little dirt balls intact. I stuck them back in — not sure whether that was squirrels too, but I suspect so.

I think the horse is out of the barn for me on that one because I’ve got birdfeeders in several places in our yard. But if I didn’t, I’d be reluctant to start, I suppose because it would just attract them like crazy.

For us, we live in a fairly rural setting, even though we actually live in town here. But I love the birds, especially in winter, and am willing to put up with the squirrels to get them. *g*

I’d give anything to know the ins and outs precisely, but all I’m getting is glimpses. Some day, maybe I’ll be able to unravel the whole of it — I hope so.

It really does come down, on so many levels, to campaign finance reform. And how to deal with that when the very people who benefit from status quo have to be the ones to change

Agreed, and the small sliver of hope I feel we have is this:

You know how Clarence Thomas always votes against affirmative action cases even though he’s a SCOTUS justice who graduated in the bottom third of his class?

Well, here’s hoping we can get traction on campaign finance reform from incumbents who see it in their self interest to cut off funding for potential challengers.

After all, they don’t like the need to constantly raise funds either.

That is time which could be otherwise spent on junkets fact finding trips to exotic places. (If I put “like Argentina” at the end of this sentence, would that be considered piling on?)

A lot to wish for I know, but never count out anything if it’s in an incumbent’s best interest to happen.

That’s politics in America, always has been always will be. I am always astounded at the innovative and creative ways some Democrats (oh pardon me, progressives) invent to blast other Democrats. Maybe someday, someone will actually pay attention in high school American history and understand that this partisan conflict is exactly what the brilliant founding fathers had in mind. Even purposeful obstructionism has it’s value to a representative democracy as it publicly takes note of just that — becoming ammunition for opposition candidates in future elections as well as not making things too comfortable and easy for those in power. It’s like a handicap in golf. Both sides of the aisle play the same game; it’s a bi-product of our two party system. It’s not about looking the other way — it’s about pushing your agenda within the system that we have.

Some don’t like the results but compromise is what gets things done as opposed to getting nothing done. Case in point (my armor is on) health care. Dems wants 1.6 trillion over ten years, GOP wants .6 trillion over ten years — compromise will inevitably be in the 1 trillion dollar range.

Of course the real reason there is objection here is not the civics of it all — it’s in support of the partisanship they decry.

The greatest squirrel scene of all time from Christmas Vacation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdiXSsFp29s

GOP wants .6 trillion over ten years — compromise will inevitably be in the 1 trillion dollar range.

They actually put some numbers down?

On paper?

Right next to “No”?

I wonder if Obama will end up like Carter; a good start, lousy in the stretch and finish as a one termer. I’m sure Obama will be a great elder statesman in the decades to come.

That picture should be called “The Future of Newspapers”

Well, be careful what you wish for those of you on the extreme left. Maybe you will be happier with President Gingrich or Romney and a couple of more Scalia’s on the court. Then you can all sit here on FDL and high five each other over a glass of wine on how you got that facist Obama for not doing what yu told him. Then you can explain to your daughter why she can’t get an abortion.

Oh you poor thing. I’m so sorry. I think it’s usual around here for one to remove the sword from the scabbard before slicing clear through to the bonehead. Do take care. You can find your way, can you?

Huh! An ambidextrous bonehead. Those must be rare.

sorry Redd. I always get OT mixed up with TO. sigh.

But this is surely related to something current: we’re having concrete work done at our property today. Hard as a, well……

Oh dear. Cleanup in aisles 42 thru 44, please. There seems to be a molasses spill of some sort. Really? Well then. Never mind. ;->

Just send me a link to the incoherent gibberish translator and I’ll get back to you.

Well, bless your heart. ;->

And she reviewed it and it was good enough to pass mustered.

Her work here is done… Hi Ho Silver! Awayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!

if he keeps brushing off the need for accountability for the very serious Bush administration crimes I will certainly be on the get rid of Obama bus.

These thugs are either above the law or not. The Obama administration needs to decide whether they believe “no one is above the law” or not

I wasn’t wishing; I was extraditing what I see as a failure in Obamas leadership, and why would I do the explaining? Obama seems so pragmatic and intent on bipartisan solutions in lieu of using his political capital to fight for repeal of DADT or DOMA or public option for health care, or continuing Bushco’ s bent on secrecy and FISA, etc. It’s up to him to pound Congress to get on with the Country’s business or explain his failure to do so. Or should the gormless Dino leadership explain to their constituents why they always follow the desires of their patrons over the good of the Country, yet expect to be reelected.

You are a poster child for exactly what I am talking about. Since when did progressives care so much about “the rule of law”? Never. This new found “law and order” passion is transparent to me and millions of others. It’s pure and simple an insatiable thirst for revenge, payback for the 2000 election, hatred for all things Bush-Cheney.

No one despises Bush-Cheney more than I. But I am not willing to sacrifice the hard fought gains millions of democrats and liberals worked so hard for just because President Obama is opting to move the country forward instead of engaging in a bloodbath. There is no way in hell that this country has the appetite for that.

Jobs, health care, supreme court appointments, Obama’s paradigm shift in foreign policy, education, the environment, this is what is important to Americans. So spare me your misguided and narcissistic self righteousness and think about the millions of poor and working class people in this country that need an Obama in the White House and a democratic congress.

Because the 50% of the Obama you want is better than 100% of a President Gingrich or Romney that is why. Period.

By the way, stop freaking out over DADT and gay rights. Obama has been in office for five months now. Not everything has to happen “on demand”, there is such a thing as expending political capital wisely and timing. This is what Obama and Emanuel understand. Remember Clinton out of the box? Didn’t work did it? The economy, jobs, Iraq, Iran, these all should come before any major effort to deal with DADT and other issues. It will get done, Obama is committed to it — just have a little patience and support his intellect and judgement on things. That’s why many voted for him.

redfish, Gosh, we actually agree on something. I knew it would happen.

Christy,
Thanks for this. Keep hounding these folks, and if there are particular actions we s hould take, please let us know.

Bob in HI

redfish I bet your ass if you had lost a child or had a family member injured for l ife due to a war based on a “pack of lies” a huge “pack of lies” you would very much want to witness those who lied about pre-war intelligence held accountable. This has nothing to do with “revenge” this has to do with the rule of law, accountability and justice.

We are not talking about lies under oath about blowjobs we are talking about hundreds of thousands of dead (both Iraqi and Americans) we are talking about outing a CIA undercover agents identity based on politics, undermining U.S. national security, we are talking about breaking international torture agreements and the torturing of innocents.

I would put money on you are one of those types hiding behind a cross around your neck and going to church on Sundays like Sanford

I thought it might be the right time for a reminder that ignoring trolls, especially the ones who seem incapable of distinguishing between fact and opinion, seems to be the most effective way of dealing with them. You know the ones; they are those that insist on correcting the “opinions” of others with their own self-determined but baseless “facts.” They are the ones who feel free to preach to everyone else, insisting that they are the correct arbiter of every given subject. Please exercise some patience and ignore, ignore, ignore.

Well there you go, finding common ground with those you don’t always agree with. Who knew.

“blloodbath” since when did holding people accountable for very serious crimes start being described as as a “bloodbath” “revenge” “looking backwards” “blame game” etc etc? At what point did you jump on the bandwagon and twisted rhetoric that justice and accountability have been defined as “revenge” Sounds like Karl Rove’s twisted logic has entered your thinking

Obama’s fixation with “moving forward” lacks the depth of understanding of when accountability does not take place. This type of poison only serves to continue the rotting from the inside.

I will work against Obama (and I put in hundreds of hours in for him this time around… as well as almost every Democratic candidate since Eugene McCarthy..accountability is not a new stance for me and many other progressives, liberals, independents and some Republicans) if he keeps pushing for this “moving forward” agenda. His administration can do both move forward and hold those responsible for the crimes committed during the eight years accountable

I thought it might also be the right time to remind you that labeling someone a troll because they don’t agree with you on every issue is rather pathetic. I am as passionate about politics as many are here; you seem to have no trouble countenancing opinions of those you agree with. I am disseminating an opinion — just as you do.

So many lies , deaths… and folks like Red fish want the nation to “move on”

No Redfish the “bloodbath” happened in Iraq and continues in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. Will you be visiting soldiers at Walter Reed soon and telling them to “move on”
http://voices.washingtonpost.c…..tched.html

When I look back on the Bush years, I think of the lies. There were so many. Lies about the war and lies to cover up the lies about the war. Lies about torture and surveillance. Lies about Valerie Plame. Vice President Dick Cheney’s lies, criminally prosecutable but for his chief of staff Scooter Libby’s lies. I also think about the extraordinary and fundamentally cancerous expansion of executive power that led to violations of our laws and our principles.

And while this wasn’t as readily apparent until President Obama took office, it’s now very clear that the Bush years were all about kicking the can down the road – either ignoring problems or, even worse, creating them and not solving them. This was true of a huge range of issues including the economy, energy, health care, global warming – and of course Iraq and Afghanistan.

How did the media cover it all? Not well. Reading pretty much everything that was written about Bush on a daily basis, as I did, one could certainly see the major themes emerging. But by and large, mainstream-media journalism missed the real Bush story for way too long. The handful of people who did exceptional investigative reporting during this era really deserve our gratitude: People such as Ron Suskind, Seymour Hersh, Jane Mayer, Murray Waas, Michael Massing, Mark Danner, Barton Gellman and Jo Becker, James Risen and Eric Lichtblau (better late than never), Dana Priest, Walter Pincus, Charlie Savage and Philippe Sands; there was also some fine investigative blogging over at Talking Points Memo and by Marcy Wheeler. Notably not on this list: The likes of Bob Woodward and Tim Russert. Hopefully, the next time the nation faces a grave national security crisis, we will listen to the people who were right, not the people who were wrong, and heed those who reported the truth, not those who served as stenographers to liars.

http://voices.washingtonpost.c…..tched.html

(In response to Leen @ 59)

Who are you to decide that a serious crime has occurred? You may believe that but in our system of justice, in this case, it’s Eric Holder who looks at the evidence and makes that call not you. Every single day all over this country District Attorney’s make decision as to whether to prosecute someone based on a myriad of issues. Obama has said he is leaving it up to Holder, that is the right call and time will tell what happens. He does believe if I am not mistaken that any attempt to prosecute at this time will rip this country apart and create push back that is unimaginable. That is his judgment to make and I support him.

You said it all when you said, “I will work against Obama”. Now you know why so many mainstream liberals and progressives like me see your kind as a dangerous political enemy. I do hope though that in the end you are just a small, insignificant powerless minority yapping it up with like-minded friends on the internet.

Froomkin

“Obama is nowhere in Bush’s league when it comes to issues of credibility, but his every action nevertheless needs to be carefully scrutinized by the media, and he must be held accountable. We should be holding him to the highest standards – and there are plenty of places where we should be pushing back. Just for starters, there are a lot of hugely important but unanswered questions about his Afghanistan policy, his financial rescue plans, and his turnaround on transparency.”

**** Loo hoo alerted us to marcy gets a heads up in this article

I have an idea for you. You obviously aren’t fitting in here, since nobody is as pure and perfect a Democrat as you are. Why don’t you start your own blog where you can be as self-important as you want to be and harangue and berate everyone who doesn’t stack up to your high standards? That way you’re not harassing people here and you can find out whether your sheer magnificence can draw the audience it’s due.

Redfish too bad I will not be going anywhere and have been involved for a very long time and will continue to do so

so many crimes tough to keep up with

Bush’s crime list
http://www.netrootsmass.net/hu…..dals-list/

Torture pictures
http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

false pre war intelligence (cover up)
http://thinkprogress.org/roberts-coverup/

Deaths in Iraq
http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/

Crimes committed by the Bush administration..Lancet report
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L…..e_Iraq_War

I have a idea for you Evil. Why don’t you get me banned or censored here, I am sure that will happen eventually. You don’t want opposing points of view.
Until then I will exercise my freedom of speech and post all I want. If you don’t like it tough.

Lordy! project much. I’m looking at his actions, inaction, stances and political and philosophical bent of his appointees and see a trend line of continuation of the Imperial President, secrecy, supporting the financial industry to the detriment of tax payers and recovery from our financial crisis (credit card crisis to follow), economy and actions undermining the rule of law. DOMA and DADT don’t affect me one iota personally, other than recognizing an equal rights issue and continued hypocrisy inside The Beltway.

And no bullshit about priorities or forcing him to to act ala FDR. The man has such vast human and technological resources at his command as to boggle the mind. Shit! I can’t get my Senators Boxer and Feinstein to act let alone get my worthless Congress Criter Lungren to think intelligently, so how can I/we get Obama to institute real policies and goals to better the USofA?

Well there you go, finding common ground with those you don’t always agree with. Who knew.

I have a idea for you Evil. Why don’t you get me banned or censored here, I am sure that will happen eventually. You don’t want opposing points of view.
Until then I will exercise my freedom of speech and post all I want. If you don’t like it tough.

Are you deliberately seeking banishment so you can wear the wound like a badge of honour?

Attytood is often critically important to meaningful discourse on contentious topics. Agreeing to disagree is done alldedamtime here with no backlash sought, provoked or required.

It surely must be frustrating to stand there in your hobnail boots and brass knuckles day after day, bashing your own head on a wall of your own making.

What on earth do you expect to accomplish with such a mode of operation? .. other than prompting one of us to speak rather meaningful, faux-gibberish back at you in response to your own sad yowl.

We who come to the Lake are NOT clones. Each and every one of us has unique experience, preferences, concerns, perspectives and core values. Respect for others is a way of life here.

Perhaps you could back up just a tad and try easing up with the labels and sucker-punching and wild binges of presuming to categorize people you do not know.

We don’t all fit in the same little slots into which you would seem inclined to jam us. Most people don’t like it when someone barges into their face and starts every sentence with a slap or shove.

*hands cool lemonade and a muffin with extra sprinkles through the toobs*

napkin? sure! ;->

We can respectfully disagree. There should be room for differing opinions with a broad liberal/democrat/progressive coalition. In a two=party system when one of the parties is a reactionary right-wing one, I see nothing to be gained by working to fracture and weaken the coalition. Issues are too complex and nuanced and people are too different to expect unanimity all the time.

My bottom line is the alternative to Barack Obama is not an option.

Unfortunately you are unaware of the fact that for a while I took that tact, bending over backwards to put forth my opinion in a polite exceedingly respectful way. I have been attacked like I was Sean Hannity, I have been cursed at, etc. Of course the moderators do nothing about that.

I play in whatever arena the home team creates and accepts. What I will never do is back down/ Boot me, I don’t care.

Would you like me to call a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance for ya, chickenhawk? All I’ve seen you do since you got here is piss and moan.

Didi mau, chickenhawk.

Seldom have I ever witnessed a more prompt, thorough and unfortunate instance of a commenter, simply by constantly displaying a belligerent attitude, driving away people who might otherwise have been eminently able and willing to engage in meaningful dialog.

Those at the Lake, while often enjoying crisp dialogue, rarely indulge in blatant hostility. Conversely, most have a psyche healthy enough that they have limits to how much verbal abuse they will absorb, before simply walking away.

Some of your ideas I would call admirable, and close to my own. But your attitude toward fellow beings is an over-the-top turnoff. I don’t need your opinions enough to endure the abuse.

No, no. Allow me. Good bye.

Naw Dragon! I meant that other …. And NO I’m not leaving.

Please pat the tigers for us. You’re a caution. ;->

No, many of you at FDL do engage in blatant hostility. You are not telling the truth. The reality is many cannot handle someone who disagrees with them. I have repeatedly posted polite reasonable factually based opinions only to be met by obscene, hateful vitriol. I’m just not going to take it. Let’s take one of the most egregious perps as an example, this dragon character. Not that I care, but do you think calling someone a chicken hawk is reflective of the verbal abuse you refer to? LOL what a hypocrite.

No, many of you at FDL do engage in blatant hostility. You are not telling the truth.

It’s hard to know what on earth would satisfy you. You sound like a bright enough person to know that NO one can promise you a perfect world. I am in charge of myself, no one else, so you have no business blaming me for what you think others do or don’t do.

I choose not to indulge in blatant hostility. In my view, that would be harmful both to me and to others.

When met with some circumstances, I have been known to tease. Shame on me. NOT. My world would be miserable without humor to help get through the trials of the day.

Pronouncing judgment upon others without taking a good hard look at oneself is a difficult call. Some might pronounce it impossible or, at the very least, unwise. I am not referring to you specifically. This is simply a general statement which helps me get through life without messing up too badly.
After all, I am imperfect. That’s the trial and the beauty of life.

I am pretty near to being a pacifist. You may regard that as a silly statement. That wouldn’t bother me. I don’t much care what you think about who and what I am. I have people who do care, and that is a truly glorious gift for which I am grateful.

I presume you are a grownup. I hope you can adapt and feel more welcome in some venues than you appear to at the moment. If I were in your shoes, I would look at my own behavior to see if I triggered some of the reactions that might be resented and unsettling to others.

Good luck in whatever you choose to do in life, as long as you do not harm others.

…no snark, real or implied…

What you don’t understand is that as a liberal democrat that understands the value of a democrat in the white house and control of congress — I really, really resent extremists on the left whose narrow ideological agenda is I believe likely to do great harm. A fractured, divided liberal coalition is much more likely to fall apart. We did not get here by being a far-left country — we got here by convincing moderates and independents that democrats can govern slightly left of center.

Good luck to you too.

You’re a chickenhawk because you fit the definition – a person who has never served in the military advocating armed conflict. When you have nightmares about your despised leftists I want the name SouthernDragon shining brightly. Piss and moan for us some more, chickenhawk.

Oh I see, so according to you, if you are an American citizen and don’t serve in the military then you have no right to support a just war against those who attacked us? What about you big mouth. Did you serve in the military? I have asked you that before and you strangely refuse to answer. Are you just a hypocrite? Or perhaps you served in Vietnam and have blood and your hands? Pray tell?

That’s exactly what I thought.

what is your military service?

That is not the question as I did not call anyone a chicken hawk. The question was directed at this dragon character who seems to think that American citizens have no right to support just military actions if they didn’t serve in the military.

so that would be a “no.”

Not that I am obligated to answer you but I will. I had a lottery number during the Vietnam war and I burned my draft card at a demonstration in Washington Square Park. I was prepared to go to Canada or jail; there is no way I was going to go to Vietnam and kill people that never attacked us. They ended the draft before I was called.

Afghanistan is not Vietnam, not even close, and I have every right to support Barack Obama’s policy there, regardless of whether I served in the military or not.

Joining the discussion late, my great-grandfather, at the age of 41, and with six children at home, enlisted in the British Army on the Monday after his brother was killed the Friday before at the front. The man who would become his son-in-law, my grandfather, lied about his age to join the British army, and by the age of seventeen had been over the top more than once. My father was a P-51 pilot in WW-II, and attempted to re-enlist as a pilot for Vietnam in 1963. So, I don’t come from a family of pacifists. I was in the last group who got student deferments in the Vietnam era. I have no regret about taking a pass on an ill-advised and stupid war.

I am with Redfish. Afganistan is not Vietnam; as stated, not even close. And I too support Obama’s policies there. That Bush blundered so completely in not completing what might have been completed does not render that all is lost there.

What you don’t understand is that as a liberal democrat that understands the value of a democrat in the white house and control of congress— I really, really resent…..

OMG you are apparently naive beyond my comprehension.

But then, I am admittedly an imperfect hoominbeen.

Essentially charging a total stranger encountered on the toobz with, “Or perhaps you served in Vietnam and have blood and your hands? Pray tell?”

Good gawd. Have you ANYTHING operable between your ears, much less in your heart?!

What an absolutely hideous charge to throw out into the ethers, on a whim perchance???

p.s., a bit of advice to you, as you appear never to have had cognizance of someone even remotely as caring as those you now attempt to smear:

Porcupines are rather stately, mind-their-own-bidness, good citizens in the wilds, hunting no one you’d recognize, harming no one without cause.
But, smack one upside the nose for no particular reason, and you can expect to have to remove a few quills from your own hide as a consequence.
or… wear them with pride. Your choice.

This is life. Grow up and respect the bluebirds, scorpions, porcupines and tigers in equal measure. This is a rapidly shrinking world. We need to TRY to get along, preferably without screeching at eachother. If you can’t do that, forget any other plans you may have had, unless you’re plugged into someone who provides them to you on a silver platter, perchance???

Thank you for your compelling story.

This discussion, as I see it, is not over substantive fact and detail any more. It deals with respect, the need for civil discussion, and simple human decency in our dialogue over difficult issues.

p.s., you’ve been so busy with your [attack all comers] mode, i fear you haven’t the foggiest notion what I believe. Pity. I’m not going to share it with you now, while you are on all-warpath-alldedamtime track.

Oh please spare me your holier-than-thou piety. You are defending someone who calls people chicken hawks and worse. I am not intimidated at all by your meaningless hyperbole or your judgment and I will continue voicing my opinion until the time you choose to censor or ban me. I think we are done now.

What an interesting family background, you must be very proud of their bravery. As Tom Brokaw noted, it truly was the greatest generation and we owe our freedom to them.

Please, too much. Steer your own ship. Nite.

And if folks take the time to ask questions of the “greatest generation” who are dying off in droves one finds out that most of them stood against the invasion of Iraq. I talked with hundreds of WWII vets before the invasion, most of them were confused by the lies being repeated on the MSM but most of the Vets I talked with (some of them marching in the fall of 2002 and winter of 2003 at the anti invasion marches) knew that it was an unnecessary and immoral war.

Redfish I believe one of the strong points here is that those who have served in the military (I come from a big military family although have not served) know what is like to really put your own ass on the line. They want the reason that they are putting their lives on the line is as close to the truth and necessary as possible.

I have watched and talked with too many Vets who weep at the thought of many of our young soldier dying based on a “pack of lies”