Unless they are being very cynical, and the “outside experts” are people like James Mitchell, who technically had left SERE and the military and were working privately at the time they were contracted by the CIA.

It’s going to take a lot of line by line comparisons with all the released information, I think, but I sense some connect the dots potential on a lot of this — some of which Marcy’s already started on — but I think you may be right on Ogrisseg and Baumgarten. I do wonder if we’ll ever get to the bottom of the “outside experts,” too.

Your observations are very astute. I hadn’t read this until writing my own article, linked below, which will answer I think many of the questions you bring up. You were right to go to the SASC hearings, but you may not have noticed the most relevant witness (in this case).

The Torture Memos Are Not Just Sick, They’re Full of Lies: A Closer Look at the Bybee Memo

It was Ogrisseg and Baumgarten all along!

(Of course, James Mitchell, too, who was likely one of the quoted SERE “experts”)

releasing these memos and then doing nothing is as ko says, worse then keeping them secret

I wonder if obama is asking us to force his hand, I surely hope so

I keep forgetting the quote, I believe it was fdr, something to the effect;

“I agree with you, I want to do it, now make me do it.”

I hope obama is that good

“as construed, the fifth amendmant does not apply to aliens outside the us..”

which parpaohrased means this;

“torture is only torture when committed on an American”

I can’t cut and paste but that’s the general idea

Is Bybee the one they get to roll up on the next two layers of the onion?

Second, I would love to know whether the particular methods used against these Islamic people were the same kinds of things which would have been done to Europeans or Asians or S. Americans or if they were particularly chosen or designed to offend, enrage, infuriate, scare, or upset the Islamic mind. If it’s the latter, then I’d want to know where these techniques and ideas came from; was there an American war college or university which did the research to help the government know how best to torture.

The reach of this could well extend beyond the Executive branch of the federal government. The purposes might extend beyond mere interrogation into political purposes or even personal sadistic crap.

Until the commanders have been punished and the full extent of this is known I wouldn’t consider punishing front-line people. It would be like the punishment of Lynndie England for perverse things done at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq before we knew who had ordered it and before those who ordered it were punished.

You’ll find we share just about everything here from our personal adversities and sorrows, to joy and laughter. The strongest tie among us, seems to me, is the deep-felt concern for our country’s well-being, and right now we need every strong mind and heart that can be found.

So come back often and share with us what you’ve found in your Journey, that one unspoken idea just might be the one that works.