Obama Remarks Today on AIG
Check Credit Cards: Banks Playing Fast And Loose Again

AIG Scrutiny: Basic Questions For Media And Congress Alike

You know it’s bad when even the WSJ’s headline screeches about growing wrath toward AIG’s bonuses.  

On This Week, Robert Kuttner made the point that auto workers take pay cuts while the big guys fund themselves bonuses — watch and see if it doesn’t piss you off, too.

Retention bonuses for companies on the brink of financial ruin are not new.

KMart paid them when they filed restructuring bankruptcy a few years ago to keep upper management who knew how to run supplier networks or other crucial components from jumping to a healthier business.  Under certain stressed conditions, they can make good business sense.

But, as we reported yesterday, the AIG bonus issue is a bit more complex than simply "is this a retention bonus."

What is most horrifying about this is how little the government appears to have known before doling out the next ladle of public bailout fundage: Did treasury know about these bonuses before doling out TARP monies? How much did they know? We have no idea at this point.

Now THAT is troubling.

The House Financial Services Committee has a hearing scheduled on risk and fraud on Wednesday at 10 am ET. One thing that will need to be determined going forward is whether this is a regular AIG business practice or some sort of "fraud in the inducement" scheme to fund their own bonus payola with ginned up demands for taxpayer moolah.

On the off chance that the media and Congress have no clue what to scrutinize, here are some basics:

– What was paid out? Were bonuses given to everyone in the company from secretarial to top-level management? Or only to a select few at the top?

– Were these bonuses given as a matter of course — at the end of every year, did AIG sort through revenues and projections for the upcoming year and reallocate divvying up revenue remaining after overhead and costs were paid out which resulted in these types of payments? When I say "system," I mean set policy with particulars spelled out? In other words, is this "normal course of business?"

– Or was this something entirely outside the realm of normal practices for AIG or others in the industry? Even taking account the anomalies of the current financial crisis?

– Were payments made to people considered crucial talent? Did they have specialized knowledge crucial to a particular aspect of the business? A rainmaker with a hefty book of client business and/or someone who has brought in a number of new accounts/business through extensive contacts and reputation? Does it make good business sense to reward this person with a payment to retain services?

– Even if that person may have had an off year the past year, does s/he have a history of substantial value to the company and work in a niche that has long-term value, doing something that is inherently risky and mercurial, and doing it well on the whole? Anyone can have an off year but still present much value overall. But some people get bought off to keep their mouths shut about internal fraud. Questions should be asked as to which some of these may be.

– How was the bonus structure decided — in a meeting with recorded minutes that would be publicly available to shareholders? Among the self-same people who received the bonuses but no one else got one? What criteria were used to determine amounts and people receiving them?

– When was the decision made to hand these out?  Again, was this normal course of business or something new?  Were there financial considerations which led to this — or something else entirely?

These are crucial questions.

Moreover, I want to know what Treasury knew about all of this before handing over the TARP funds. Why the hell didn’t they ask about existing contractual obligations and perform some basic due diligence on them BEFORE handing over taxpayer dollars? Or did they?

What else needs to be asked on this? And what should government be asking themselves before taking any more steps on any of this?

(YouTube — AIG discussion on ABC’s This Week.)


  Spotlight
133 Responses to "AIG Scrutiny: Basic Questions For Media And Congress Alike"
Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 06:11 am 1

Morning all — pardon me while I grab another cuppa coffee…


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 06:16 am 2

i’m bringing this one back from last fall (when i was hollering about the TARP vote):

transparency, accountability and re-regulation

that is what our congress should have insisted on – but instead they wrote a blank check.


ShotoJamf | Monday March 16, 2009 06:17 am 3

Good Morning, Christy:

Very nice overview of the basic questions that should be answered. One thing, however: You might want to speak a bit more slowly so the brainiacs in congress are able to grasp (however faintly) what you are saying. Also…you didn’t mention anything about more corporate tax cuts. I’m pretty sure that’s the key to fixing this whole economic slowdown thing. At least that’s what John Cornyn said this morning.


Peterr | Monday March 16, 2009 06:17 am 4

I may be off on my timeline and the path of the earlier bailout money, but didn’t it go through the NY Fed last fall, when Geithner was the head of the NY Fed? If so, we’ve got one of two scenarios: Either AIG misled Geithner back then and he’s going to be very, very angry about it now, or Geithner knew about the mess and the bonuses then and he’s been sitting on that information for the last five months.

Neither case makes me terribly happy, but I’d love to see someone be able to tell me which is the reason I should be upset.


ShotoJamf | Monday March 16, 2009 06:18 am 5

Hey Selise. Whatup?


perris | Monday March 16, 2009 06:19 am 6

I don’t know how anyone could have thought there would not be theft and abuse when these companies are given free money to “bail them out”

they knew they were leveraging 35 to one, they knew they were giving their assets away, but they were able to put some dollars in their own pocket and that’s all they cared about

the ONLY sane method for distributing liquidity through these irresponsible companies is to simply set aside a fund that is NOT theirs, it’s a fund they can use.

there could be no application for specific purposes like small business loans and cram downs, (with audits to verify) and a more restrictive application when the request for funds goes off purpose.

this way if there is a need the fund can still be tapped but they have to prove the need.

why on EARTH did we give these companies ANY discretionary money is BEYOND my level of compression


STTPinOhio | Monday March 16, 2009 06:19 am 7

As I have offered up before, the auto companies should show up at their next hearing before Congress with ‘AIG’ nameplates on the table before them.

It would eliminate their need to present a plan for going forward, while at the same time make them eligible for 10 times the money they have requested so far.

And, as for the sanctity of AIG employees’ employment contracts, maybe I missed the same concern as it relates to UAW workers being forced to offer concessions in order for the auto companies to get bailout money.


ShotoJamf | Monday March 16, 2009 06:23 am 8
In response to Peterr @ 4

I got five that says Geithner knew it was coming. I’ll give you two that he was a deer in the headlights…


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 06:23 am 9
In response to Peterr @ 4

I wish I knew the answers to that — but, alas, the lack of transparency, as selise has repeatedly pointed out, creates a big set of questions to which we have few if any public answers.


WarOnWarOff | Monday March 16, 2009 06:24 am 10

Jeez, why didn’t we just let these bastards “go Galt” when we had the chance? “You want a big fat bonus you special thing you? Don’t let the do0r hit you on the way out, precious.”


Ann in AZ | Monday March 16, 2009 06:24 am 11
In response to selise @ 2

but instead they wrote aanother blank check.

Fixed it for you; hope you don’t mind!


ShotoJamf | Monday March 16, 2009 06:24 am 12
In response to STTPinOhio @ 7

If the congresstards ask about a business plan, they can just point to the namplates. Good strategy.


Peterr | Monday March 16, 2009 06:26 am 13
In response to Christy Hardin Smith @ 9

The House Financial Services committee might want to ask Geithner for his thoughts on the matter at that hearing on Wednesday.


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 06:27 am 14
In response to ShotoJamf @ 5

morning shotojamf!

please don’t let the aig kabuki distract from geithner’s new plan (supposed to be revealed this week?) to rip us off.


perris | Monday March 16, 2009 06:27 am 15
In response to ShotoJamf @ 8

I’ll take the bet on the deer in headlights, I say he knew it was comming and allowed it thinking he could get away with it with threats of litigation

here’s the real question though, these are “retention” bonuses, as posted by wheel, christy and just about everyone, there is no reason on earth we want to retain these people

we want them to try finding gainful employment on their own and if they want to come back there is a SMALL chance we can rehire them (at far lower wage) if they have some prep in areas we don’t want to reprep


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 06:27 am 16

One other question that I had was how much of this is remnant stink-bomb territory from the Bush Administration’s decision-making? And, if so, why did the Obama administration not ascertain this was coming in a review of the files, not get out in front of this before it hit the public’s purview — and not do some measure of contractual review on the back end if not?

There are SO many open questions on this it’s almost impossible to know which direction to start in…ugh.


foothillsmike | Monday March 16, 2009 06:27 am 17
In response to Peterr @ 13

And then maybe they could issue a sternly worded letter.


i4u2bi | Monday March 16, 2009 06:28 am 18

Who could have ever thought that giving billions of our money to banksters would be a bad idea? On a more serious note won’t setting a time for the end of the recession just enable the Republican ‘econo-terrorists’?


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 06:28 am 19
In response to Peterr @ 13

A little bird tells me that AIG management may be present for the hearing, and I’m trying to ascertain whether Geithner will be as well.


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 06:28 am 20
In response to Ann in AZ @ 11

most excellent correction. thank you!


foothillsmike | Monday March 16, 2009 06:30 am 21
In response to perris @ 15

Maybe they could just keep the books in the prisons in which they are housed.


ShotoJamf | Monday March 16, 2009 06:30 am 22
In response to selise @ 14

I can hardly wait.


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 06:30 am 23
In response to foothillsmike @ 21

With our luck, they’d end up with kitchen duty and cook them all over again. *G*


ShotoJamf | Monday March 16, 2009 06:31 am 24

Let’s hope they perjure themselves. Not that congress would do anything about it, but still…


foothillsmike | Monday March 16, 2009 06:31 am 25

Are they going to fly there on their corporate jets?


twolf1 | Monday March 16, 2009 06:32 am 26

Breaking banner over at Reuters: “Citigroup says base pay frozen for 2009, and no bonuses for executives in 2008; CEO Pandit’s 2008 compensation valued at $10.8 million 9:26am EDT”


ShotoJamf | Monday March 16, 2009 06:33 am 27
In response to perris @ 15

Yeah, we definitely need to retain those top-notch employees who ran the company into the ground. Makes sense to me…


perris | Monday March 16, 2009 06:33 am 28
In response to ShotoJamf @ 24

which reminds me, I wonder what’s happening with rove and meirs


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 06:33 am 29

You know, the thing that gets me most with all of this is that these people do PR for a living as part of their jobs, right? They have to constantly sell the image that is AIG. They could not see that up-front, lump-sum payments in these amounts culled from bailout fundage wouldn’t raise a few eyebrows if discovered?

Did they not think about it? Or did they just not give a shit?

Honestly, I’d love an answer to that one.


perris | Monday March 16, 2009 06:35 am 30
In response to foothillsmike @ 21

interesting, instead of punching out license plates!

*note to self, find out if they still punch license plates as a vocation in jail*


foothillsmike | Monday March 16, 2009 06:35 am 31
In response to perris @ 28

Congress is trying to hire some stern letter writers>


perris | Monday March 16, 2009 06:37 am 32

Did they not think about it? Or did they just not give a shit?

errr..trick question?

Honestly, I’d love an answer to that one.

I suggest stronger coffee


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 06:37 am 33
In response to foothillsmike @ 31

I could make a few suggestions…


perris | Monday March 16, 2009 06:38 am 34
In response to twolf1 @ 26

citigroup has a better set of marketing advisers then aig, of this we can be certain


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 06:39 am 35
In response to perris @ 34

Either that or ones who can learn well on the fly after this weekend’s hubbub.


cbl2 | Monday March 16, 2009 06:39 am 36

President Obama to address AIG Bonuses at 11:25 am, ET


demi | Monday March 16, 2009 06:40 am 37

I’m glad all of you folks are able to stay focused on all of this, because I sure can’t. And, it’s not that my mind is so pretty. It just doesn’t wrap around all the details. There was a special on PBS (I think) last night called House of Cards. My husband was glued to it. I kept trying to stay put in a chair and watch, or rather listen. It sounds like a foreign language to me.
I know that we’ve been lied to. I know that after Fannie and Freddie started to fold, a lot of smaller loan institutions took advantage of the situation and targeted sub-prime mortgage applicants. I know that a lot of foolish people signed paperwork that they didn’t understand, knew they could never fulfill their promises, but did so anyway. Both sides were being greedy and foolish, I think. And, I see that the government allowed it to happen for a long time. Regulations have been pulled back for a long time.
Thanks again all.


ShotoJamf | Monday March 16, 2009 06:40 am 38

It is very difficult to know where to start. I guess they need to stop the bleeding first and then move down the priority list from there. Of course it doesn’t really help that pretty much everything is bleeding…


foothillsmike | Monday March 16, 2009 06:41 am 39
In response to cbl2 @ 36

A sternly worded speech?


perris | Monday March 16, 2009 06:41 am 40

good call, now that you mention it, probably the latter


Peterr | Monday March 16, 2009 06:42 am 41

Did they not think about it? Or did they just not give a shit?

Honestly, I’d love an answer to that one.

I think the answer is B.

They obviously thought this through very carefully, so as to try to make the bonuses as iron-clad as possible.


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 06:43 am 42

i guess they think they’ve gotta get while the getting is good. who’s going to stop them? certainly not our congress which has, for the most part, aided and abetted the looting since during the clinton administration. when i went back and looked at the record of deregulation of the financial industry i was astounded at how bad the Ds were. imo, gramm, as bad as he was (and he was bad), has just been a distraction. it all would have happened with or without him – it was just too important to the clinton administration. and what they did deregulation wise in this country was nothing compared to what they pushed for (and for the most part succeeded in) internationally.

that obama would have summers (who not only was deeply involved in that deregulation, but has also helped killed millions of people with his economics policies) head his economics team should be all the warning we need about whose side these guys are on. hint – it’s not our side (and my “our side” includes ordinary people everywhere, not just in the usa).


ShotoJamf | Monday March 16, 2009 06:43 am 43

They just didn’t give a shit. These people are stupid, unimaginably arrogant and they live in bubbles. There’s a nice combo…


cbl2 | Monday March 16, 2009 06:43 am 44
In response to foothillsmike @ 39

probably, but (per my earlier comment about Plouffe and Axelrod) at a minimum an indication of the political danger/fallout for them in all of this


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 06:44 am 45
In response to cbl2 @ 36

He has a meeting today with small business owners and was set to announce some opening of credit issues for smaller businesses & banks today since the big firms have been the ones gobbling up all available liquidity and hogging it for themselves.

My guess is that the AIG mess over the weekend may have opened the gates a wee bit more for them than they were anticipating, which will make smaller businesses happy. But the questions still remain on AIG — hope he has some preliminary answers at the least.


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 06:45 am 46

re aiding and abetting. forgot to include this bit:

$5.1 billion

$114 million


Ann in AZ | Monday March 16, 2009 06:46 am 47
In response to foothillsmike @ 31

I thought that was a job qualification for becoming a Senator or Congressman!


Crosstimbers | Monday March 16, 2009 06:46 am 48
In response to STTPinOhio @ 7

I agree, but Corker and Shelby are acting as outraged, faux populist, and willing to void sacred contracts with regard to AIG as they were UAW pension contracts. They’ll ride any anti-adminstration pony they can find.


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 06:46 am 49
In response to selise @ 42

Someone in the above video — and I can’t recall if it was Kuttner or Frank Rich — talks about Summers et al. having been complicit in a lot of this, just says it right out. It was the first time I heard a major national econ commentator be blunt about it on a major news show.

There is a shift afoot in evaluation of all of this, I think. The question is how to best make use of the momentum and push things toward accountability, transparency and what needs to be done well.


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 06:47 am 50
In response to Crosstimbers @ 48

Shelby is such a self-serving ass, isn’t he? Corker, too, but given Shelby’s long track record of hopping from one horse to another to enrich is own pals in his state’s pocketses? It’s beyond galling to see him act the part of populist hero dude.


Prairie Sunshine | Monday March 16, 2009 06:49 am 51
In response to ShotoJamf @ 43

you’ve pretty much covered all the bases. Critical mass has been reached on this, and Obama better have a strong action plan, not just words today.

Claw back the money. Cancel the checks. Renegotiate the contracts.

This s another fine mess Bushie and Chee-knee and Tinkerbell and the gang have left us.


foothillsmike | Monday March 16, 2009 06:50 am 52
In response to Ann in AZ @ 47

No their job description is to be able to baffle with BS and pass the buck


WarOnWarOff | Monday March 16, 2009 06:51 am 53

They are sociopaths, heading sociopathic entities.


Crosstimbers | Monday March 16, 2009 06:51 am 54

Yes ma’am. I have to limit my exposure. Wood carving is my antidote.


ShotoJamf | Monday March 16, 2009 06:52 am 55
In response to Prairie Sunshine @ 51

“Claw back the money. Cancel the checks. Renegotiate the contracts.”

I’d like to think they would do this. It would certainly be the right thing to do. Will it happen? I got another five that says, “nope”…


Prairie Sunshine | Monday March 16, 2009 06:52 am 56

After listening to Paul O’Neill yesterday on Fareed Zakaria’s GPS, I hope he’s at the table for WH economic discussions. He made more sense than I’ve heard from any of the high-flying spinners from the financials or Congress or the media on this debacle.


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 06:53 am 57
In response to Crosstimbers @ 54

Baking tends to be mine, which isn’t so good for my “bottom line,” if you catch my drift. Maybe I need to switch off to a brisk walk around the block…


Prairie Sunshine | Monday March 16, 2009 06:53 am 58
In response to ShotoJamf @ 55

Where there’s a will, there’s a way.

Sometimes the ol’ cliches apply better than anything else.


JohnnyTable70 | Monday March 16, 2009 06:54 am 59

The standard AIG talking point about the retention bonuses is that the firm was contractually obligated, and that fear of lawsuits from bonus eligible employees was the rationale for doling out the bonuses. If we accept this trip at face value, how come AIG and other Wall Street firms receiving TARP money didn’t ask for a liability waiver from Congress?

I am aware of at least two liability waivers built into legislation passed during the Bush Administration. That would be a waiver for the makers of the anthrax vaccine as well as the horrible retroactive immunity for the telecoms for their role in spying on ordinary Americans. If Congress was so willing to give waivers for these laws, the chances are it would have done the same for Wall Street. Moreover, if the threat of lawsuits was legitimate, AIG and other companies would have explicitly asked for a waiver.


phred | Monday March 16, 2009 06:56 am 60

Your question also raises the larger question of why would Obama keep such a warmed over leftover as Geithner from BushCo? How could Obama think someone in the middle of all of this would be the best person to clean up the mess? Obama absolutely inherited this disaster from Bush, but you would think he would want to make a clean break so he doesn’t end up getting dirty himself.


ShotoJamf | Monday March 16, 2009 06:56 am 61
In response to Prairie Sunshine @ 58

You are correct. Just keep hammering for the Powers that Be to do the right thing…


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 06:56 am 62

summers wasn’t just complicit – he was one of the main architects. and i wasn’t using hyperbole when i said he helped to kill millions of people with his economic policies.

one of my biggest regrets is that i didn’t take the seattle WTO protesters seriously until several years later (when i met some of them in early 2002). if i’d been getting my news in the late ’90s via democracy now! or listening to what those DFH protesting against the WTO and the IMF had to say, i would have caught on a lot quicker.


demi | Monday March 16, 2009 06:56 am 63

Ah Ha. Another reason you’re so anxious for Spring to arrive.


foothillsmike | Monday March 16, 2009 06:57 am 64
In response to JohnnyTable70 @ 59

Moreover, if the threat of lawsuits was legitimate, AIG and other companies would have explicitly asked for a waiver

.
This assumes that they didn’t want to pay the bonuses


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 06:57 am 65
In response to JohnnyTable70 @ 59

And honestly, since when have contractual obligations ever held fully when a company is under duress? Concessions and renegotiations are done all the time under those conditions — especially where the top management who have caused those conditions are the ones making the concessions in terms of deferred payments, etc.

As the video above discusses, it isn’t as though there are scads of job openings at top level management in insurance companies or others right now. The government had leverage several months ago when all of this came up — why didn’t they use it? Did they do no due diligence at all?

What did Paulson know and when did he know it?


WarOnWarOff | Monday March 16, 2009 06:58 am 66
In response to JohnnyTable70 @ 59

Also, doesn’t bankruptcy put an end to contractual obligations?


Blub | Monday March 16, 2009 07:00 am 67

ok. I don’t understand the retention bonus argument at all. Former SVPs and Managing Directors of ibanks – friends and acquaintances of min – who used to command million dollar packages and with 15-20 yrs post MBA experience are now either unemployed or have taken jobs with titles like “Credit Analysis Supervisor”, “workout manager,” and “valuation manager” at accountancies and rating agencies, with salaries that are a tiny fraction of what they used to make. Derivative specialists are among the worst hit. Precisely who are they worried might steal these valuable human resources?


phred | Monday March 16, 2009 07:00 am 68
In response to selise @ 42

Well said selise. This is not a D v. R problem, this is absolutely an elite v. the rest of us problem and it is global. Obama picked his side, now we have to see whether he is willing to reconsider the team he picked and join us instead.


WarOnWarOff | Monday March 16, 2009 07:02 am 69
In response to phred @ 68

Oh, but we’re just bloggers. You know. Riff raff.


cbl2 | Monday March 16, 2009 07:03 am 70
In response to WarOnWarOff @ 66

in addressing this subject, TPM reader DH sums it up succinctly for me . . .

As Liddy surely knows, when a company wants to get out of a contract that is questionable or troubling, it can generally find some legal theory to justify disavowing the contract. Here, given what has happened at AIG, it would be shocking if there were not a plausible argument that the AIGFP ******* breached whatever contracts allegedly entitle them to bonuses. Assume that AIG refuses the bonuses, and the ****bags sue to collect them. AIG gets a jury trial. What jury in the USA would award bonuses? It’s damn near inconceivable. Liddy is paying the bonuses because he wants to pay them and could give a **** about honor, decency, taxpayers, responsibility, whatever


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 07:03 am 71
In response to Blub @ 67

That’s part of the overall picture questions that have not been answered about this — and why it smacks of self-dealing payola instead of sensible payment, I think. Under ordinary circumstances, there is demand forcing the payment — here? Not so much.


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 07:05 am 72
In response to cbl2 @ 70

Glenn has a great piece on contractual issues this morning that is well worth a read.


ShotoJamf | Monday March 16, 2009 07:05 am 73

Does anyone think BO might be walking the tightrope down the middle so as to position himself for a second term, or (plainly stated) is he just a corporatist? I have no idea, but I do wonder. If condition one is true and the same policies and players remain for the duration, then he’s really rolling the dice, especially insofar as the economy is concerned. I just don’t get it, but I’m becoming increasingly disillusioned.


cbl2 | Monday March 16, 2009 07:06 am 74

of course he does :D, headed over there now. thanks


ShotoJamf | Monday March 16, 2009 07:11 am 75

OT: Upcoming movie based on Valerie Plame’s book:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/b…..ovie/full/


oldgold | Monday March 16, 2009 07:11 am 76

I have never been involved anything this big, but I have been involved in matters that involved cultures of entitlement. Problems enbedded in cultures of entitlement are damn difficult to deal with. At every turn you confront the ‘ they dont get it factor.’ Until the Street loses at least some of this sense of entitlement, solving this banking/credit problem is going to be all but impossible.


Blub | Monday March 16, 2009 07:12 am 77

by the way, when I was in the industry, AIG always had a reputation of paying badly and treating people badly, and they never did get the A Team apart from a very few superstars they bought for use as human props for their financial products unit. Interesting how now they’re suddenly one of the most generous. In summary, I don’t see anynevudence that this is anything other than brinkmanship and brazen theft.


barbara | Monday March 16, 2009 07:12 am 78

Now THAT is troubling.

That is an expression David’s oncology team used when they were trying to find a way to politely say that what they’d found meant he was most awfully and truly f****d. And it would be fair to say that AIG et al have a disease (greed?) running rampant through its system.


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 07:12 am 79
In response to ShotoJamf @ 73

Honestly, I think it’s awfully easy to second-guess after the fact from the outside, but we have no idea what sort of data they are looking at or how its being fed to him. He went with the “safe, Wall Street friendly” choices for advisors at a time when the market was really shaky — probably because he felt that was the best thing to do. I disagree, but that doesn’t mean Obama is some corrupt scumbag — it just means he made a different choice than I would have liked him to make.

It also doesn’t mean e won’t make course corrections over time, either. Which I’d like to see him do sooner rather than later. I don’t trust Summers — and am not likely to do so, given his history — but I don’t think the bulk of the people around Obama are inherently evil either. I do like a lot of what Orszag has had to say on his own, so that’s a plus, as is the fact that Jared Bernstein is in the mix as Biden’s econ advisor.

It’s easy on any given day to pull out negative stuff — but it’s also worth noting that some of the economic indicators of late have shown that things were starting to stabilize or actually move upward — that is, before this AIG mess hit the fan, anyway, it’s too early to know what that will do for the day.

People thought FDR was horrible in a lot of quarters his first year or two in office until things started to turn around solidly — it what is done over the long term that counts most. I just wish it were being done by folks I trusted more. SIGH


phred | Monday March 16, 2009 07:14 am 80
In response to WarOnWarOff @ 69

You know it’s kind of funny that a guy (BO) who is so tickled with his on-line presence and accessibility is at the same time dismissive of the on-line community. Makes me wonder how much influence he really wants the public to have…


Sixty Something | Monday March 16, 2009 07:15 am 81

Why not let them pay the bonuses if they must, then reduce their bailout by the same amount? That way tax payers wouldn’t be paying the ir bonuses.


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 07:19 am 82
In response to Sixty Something @ 81

The problem is that this money was already paid to them months ago — we are only finding out where it went months after the fact, and only after another disbursement to them went out the door. This is what folks like Alan Grayson have been trying to dig out for months in oversight hearings — what it took months of badgering to get only months after the fact.

There is no excuse for Treasury not doing at least minimal due diligence to determine where some of this was going and why. None. And even less of an excuse for taxpayers not to have some semblance of oversight if these people are going to ask for bailout money coming from our pockets because we have a right o know what kind of return we can — or cannot — expect, at a bare minimum.


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 07:21 am 83
In response to phred @ 68

exactly. there has already been some kabuki to try to prevent us from seeing that. that nasty bit of right wing populist rhetoric (”buy american”) was probably just the first of what will be an all out pr effort to whip up some nationalism, etc. like aig or goldman sachs are any more on our side than deutsche bank.

we’ve got to be on guard for it, because when there is almost no progressive populism (like now) the right wing variety will try to fill the vacuum.


WarOnWarOff | Monday March 16, 2009 07:23 am 84
In response to phred @ 80

Especially when those awful bloggers (Atrios, Krugman, Rubini, etc.) saw this economic mess for what it was months, if not years ago…


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 07:23 am 85

It’s easy on any given day to pull out negative stuff — but it’s also worth noting that some of the economic indicators of late have shown that things were starting to stabilize or actually move upward

what were those? i have no idea what you are referring to.


barbara | Monday March 16, 2009 07:23 am 86

What she said.


demi | Monday March 16, 2009 07:25 am 87
In response to selise @ 83

because when there is almost no progressive populism (like now)
I’m not sure what you mean, Selise. Can you explain a little. Thanks.


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 07:26 am 88
In response to selise @ 85

Stock numbers, price stabilizing in energy costs for public use, slow in decline on purchases for general retail in regular sectors (not the richflation ones, which still suck rocks)…there have been several blips the last few weeks as I’ve watched the news that had that “turning the tide” feeling. Not saying it’s over, not by a long shot — but recovery starts with tiny steps forward, and we’d at least stopped feeling like complete and utter freefall to me.

Just my opinion, but there you go.


Blub | Monday March 16, 2009 07:27 am 89
In response to Sixty Something @ 81

again, I’m still having difficulty with this “must” thing. I used to work on Wall Street.. the pay shenanigans were almost indescribable, and I can describe numerous cases with firms reneged on guaranteed payments, mostly out of pure spite or revenge scenarios. In a town market, such changes fall into the general category of “so sue me…” Additonally, the circumstances associated with the guarantees themselves may have been fraudulent or done in bad faith, in which case they they have an out (the threat of prosecution arising from fraudulent conveyance and mis-use of public funds). If they’re payin’ ‘em, they want to pay ‘em.


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 07:29 am 90
In response to selise @ 46

maybe i should just make that one into a quick diary later today if i have the time. i wonder – does everyone know how deep the Ds are in bed with the financial services industry? that if you look at the tarp recipients donations for last year they run almost 2 to 1 for the Ds?


WarOnWarOff | Monday March 16, 2009 07:29 am 91
In response to oldgold @ 76

Recently decided to look at my company’s SEC filings and sure enough, the top guys make as much (or more) in bonuses as their regular salary (something like $250,000, plus another $200,000 in bonuses) .

Me, I’m a lowly peon, and have never received even one bonus in the almost ten years I’ve been year. Not one.

“Culture of entitlement,” indeed.


ShotoJamf | Monday March 16, 2009 07:31 am 92

I don’t think he’s inherently corrupt. Quite the opposite. He has good instincts and does seem to understand the danger of falling into the “groupthink” trap. (The thing that impresses me most about him is that he came (basically) from nothing, totally self-made. That cuts a lot of weight with me.) What is worrying, however, is the fact that he has surrounded himself with (what I would consider to be) too many warmed over, run-of-the-mill establishment types. I’m still hoping for the best, but (like you) I do wish he would move more quickly. And if the “Party of Nope” doesn’t like it, let ‘em squawk. They’ve got noise right now, but that’s about it…


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 07:32 am 93
In response to selise @ 90

How many years are you looking back on that? Last time I looked at numbers on that, it shifted over time as the financial sector hedged it bets on who would gain control — 2000, 2002, 2004 — more to GOP, shift in 2006, 2008 toward Dems, etc.


Ann in AZ | Monday March 16, 2009 07:33 am 94
In response to Blub @ 89

Maybe the laws are different in England, which is where I understand these contracted bonus are to be paid. That is why they don’t dare breech the contracts; they said on the news that it would cost more to try to break the contracts than to pay the “bonuses”.


Blub | Monday March 16, 2009 07:33 am 95
In response to WarOnWarOff @ 91

$450,000 total comp.. that may actually make them a paragon of restraint among publicly traded companies…


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 07:33 am 96

Come to think of it, I may be thinking of financials in general including banks and others and not just investment capital, though…


Blub | Monday March 16, 2009 07:34 am 97
In response to Ann in AZ @ 94

that may very be correct.


WarOnWarOff | Monday March 16, 2009 07:34 am 98
In response to Blub @ 95

Yowza!


Blub | Monday March 16, 2009 07:34 am 99

may very well be correct I mean


phred | Monday March 16, 2009 07:34 am 100
In response to selise @ 90

Please do selise, that would be very helpful.


WarOnWarOff | Monday March 16, 2009 07:37 am 101

I really don’t know how these greedheads sleep at night. It really must be the sociopathy that makes ‘em all bright and shiny and happy little greedheads!


greenwarrior | Monday March 16, 2009 07:39 am 102
In response to phred @ 68

I doubt he’ll be changing teams. I think our options are to mitigate the disaster. Basically, by putting pressure and getting publicity to try to steer some of the most egregious issues in a better direction.


greenwarrior | Monday March 16, 2009 07:41 am 103

“show text” isn’t working for me. is this a personal problem or is this the way things are right now?


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 07:42 am 104
In response to greenwarrior @ 103

It’s a glitch in the code here at CHS — we’ve been trying to isolate and fix it, but haven’t gotten it just right yet. It’s not just you — short answer: we’re working on it.


greenwarrior | Monday March 16, 2009 07:43 am 105
In response to oldgold @ 76

it’s the opposite problem actually – they are getting it. they’re getting all of it and they’re getting away with it.


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 07:45 am 106

don’t know what news you are watching, but it must not be the same as what i’m reading.

re stocks. roubini has been all over this one (he even predicted it). latest: Reflections on the latest dead cat bounce or bear market sucker’s rally

re: slow in decline. roubini has also been warning about what improvements in second derivatives would mean (and not mean). here is a recent bit:

Of course you cannot rule out another bear market sucker’s rally in 2009, most likely in Q2 or Q3: the drivers of this rally will be the improvement in second derivatives of economic growth and activity in US and China that the policy stimulus will provide on a temporary basis: but after the effects of tax cut will fizzle out in late summer and after the shovel-ready infrastructure projects are done the policy stimulus will slack by Q4 as most infrastructure projects take year to be started let alone finished; similarly in China the fiscal stimulus will provide a fake boost to non-tradeable productive activities while the traded sector and manufacturing continues to contract. But given the severity of macro, household, financial firms and corporate imbalances in the US and around the world this Q2 or Q3 sucker’s market rally will fizzle out later in the year like the previous 5 ones in the last 12 months.

What are the downside risks and the upside risks to these bearish predictions for US and global equities. On the downside we have argued here that there is at least a third probability of a L-shaped global near depression rather than the mere current severe U-shaped recession. If a near depression were to take hold globally a 40% to 50% further fall in US and global equities from current levels could not be ruled out. But in this L-shaped near depression the last thing one would have to worry about would be stock markets as more severe issues would have to be addressed (unemployment rates in the mid-double digits – 15% or above – and multi-year stagnation and deflation).

as hugh has been pointing out, none of the numbers add up. the stimulus was too small and not well designed. we need to restructure the banking industry (breaking up the big banks, regulation, writing down losses, transparency, etc) and instead we are throwing massive amounts of money down what is in effect as black hole.

the situation looks desperate, especially for people in developing countries. and as i have been saying since the TARP debate – this is as big or bigger (i now go with bigger) than our decision to go to war in iraq.

very much hope to be wrong.


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 07:52 am 107
In response to demi @ 87

i mean all the effort by some in big labor (and by this i mean big labor leadership, not the rank and file) and moveon etc to support obama policies even when they make no sense (the stimulus, insurance centered health care reform and keeping single payer off the table, etc). looks like big efforts to me to redirect all the progressive populist rage into pro-D channels. that worked so long we had bushco – but we don’t anymore. so where is the progressive populism directed at the current administration? where are the demands for single payer? where are the demands that obama fire summers and geithner?

does that help?


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 07:54 am 108

it’s in the links – the ratio was the previous year’s donations by tarp recipients.


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 07:55 am 109
In response to phred @ 100

will try. but if i don’t get around to it today, you do at least have the links.


demi | Monday March 16, 2009 08:06 am 110
In response to selise @ 107

It helps. me understand what you said.
So, do you think all the progressive rage that I read here at the lake is impotent rhetoric? I hope you don’t see us just as riff raff.


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 08:15 am 111
In response to demi @ 110

no, i don’t think we’re riff raff. but i do think we are having trouble seeing the role most of the Ds are playing in this. and with congress and the executive controlled by Ds, that’s a problem if it prevents us from organizing for progressive change.


demi | Monday March 16, 2009 08:27 am 112
In response to selise @ 111

Oh, I don’t know about that. I don’t recall a lot of folks here, headliners or commenters distributing hall passes to officials passed on their D status.


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 08:32 am 113
In response to demi @ 112

just one example – before the nov elections how many times did we hear about how bad phil gramm (mccain’s econ advisor) was? and now many times did we hear how bad summers and rubin (obama’s econ advisors) were?


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 08:33 am 114
In response to selise @ 113

A lot, on both counts. Gramm because he was advising McCain — including giving McCain’s economic plans his personal touch — I hit that a LOT. And Jane hit Summers, Rubin, et al as did Ian and Stirling and any number of others. Plus we talked about all of it ad nauseum in the comments.


demi | Monday March 16, 2009 08:51 am 115

Come to think about it, I think maybe I do know what you are saying. Considering the current Jane thread…I can read between the lines. I think I’ll stay out of it. No time for games right now.


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 09:08 am 116

before the elections?

it was the absence of summers and rubin in the gramm narratives (and their comparable role in advising obama) that prompted me to go back to the record and do my own research. even though i’ve talked it up in the comments, wrote a diary, posted a timeline, linked to the cpan archives, etc – still, to this day people still quote that motherjones article about how gramm “snuck” the cfma into the omnibus spending bill. but i can find no evidence in the historical record to support that (and lots against it).


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 09:17 am 117
In response to selise @ 116

Really? Because I remember talking with you about it pretty much every time there was an econ post. And I recall Stirling and Ian talking about both of them and Jane talking about Rubin any number of times.

Maybe not the number of times you wanted, nor the way you wanted it discussed — but we spent a lot of time talking about the lot of it. Gramm was and has been a pet project of mine for quite a while — my goal being to make his name toxic as an econ advisor because, frankly, his self-dealing BS gets on my last nerve. And I don’t see anything wrong with that given that having him as treasury secretary right now would have been Paulson times Cheney plus a dash of Reaganesque twaddle. Ick.

What exactly do you want me to say? We didn’t discuss it enough for your personal desires so we should apologize profusely for asking tough questions of all the Dem candidates during the campaign at a time when people constantly gave us shit for daring to ask any at all? We asked tough questions about Hillary’s ties to Mark Penn’s lobbying and Summers, et. al on occasion, and got lambasted as being anti-woman. (No, I’m not kidding.) We asked any number of questions about Obama, including whether he was really a liberal based on his policy leanings for years before he ever ran for the Presidency and continued to ask them through the campaign — and got shit daily in the comments for that.

Honestly, selise, what is it you want with this? Seriously?


Mauimom | Monday March 16, 2009 09:19 am 118

Christy, how soon does Jay Rockefeller have to run again to continue his sham “representation” of WV?

‘Cause you would be FAR better in that job!!!

[Replacing Byrd would be okay too.]


Mauimom | Monday March 16, 2009 09:22 am 119
In response to perris @ 30

*note to self, find out if they still punch license plates as a vocation in jail*

But don’t find out from “personal experience,” please!!


Mauimom | Monday March 16, 2009 09:26 am 120
In response to demi @ 37

I’m glad all of you folks are able to stay focused on all of this, because I sure can’t.

Christy, I was thinking, just after sending out FDL’s handy-dandy “contact your Congresscritter” letter to around 30 of my nearest & dearest:

Has FDL ever considered doing an “AIG For Dummies” post? Those of us who are devoted followers have read detailed diaries from writers here, but there are a list of basic “what’s going on? who are the players” questions that would be helpful to list & answer. We could then use this to educate our friends & bring them along.

The MSM sure ain’t doing this.


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 09:26 am 121
In response to Mauimom @ 118

He just won re-election in 2008. And Byrd just won in 2006.


Mauimom | Monday March 16, 2009 09:30 am 122

Well, a girl can hope.

PS – Hawaii continues to be available. Fares are currently under $500. Just sayin’


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 09:31 am 123
In response to Mauimom @ 120

That’s part of what massachhio’s been trying to do, I think — not just AIG, but all the CDSs — because it’s so complex you need someone with experience with it to deconstruct. I don’t understand half of the shit that a lot of these big companies were trying to do — in some cases because it looks like they specifically designed things so that it would not be easily understood by anyone on the outside. In my former line of work, that would have raised my hackles as being a “con.” And maybe it is — but one that was legalized in some ways by a lot of the deregulation of the last few years.

I wish I had a deeper and broader understanding of a lot of the econ issues — it’s never been my forte or my balliwick, but I’m trying to self-teach on a lot of it because it’s so enormously vital that people ask detailed and pointed questions now so that we don’t make the same mistakes going forward. It’s just taking me a while to wrap my brain around a lot of this in between taking care of The Peanut and the FIL these days. But I feel like I need to get this — and if I can start understanding it, pretty much anyone can because, honestly, it does not come either easily or naturally for me. *g*


Mauimom | Monday March 16, 2009 09:32 am 124
In response to Blub @ 89

Thank you!

I think “so sue me” is a seriously under-utilized response to the AIG + AIG executives and their pleas.


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 09:32 am 125

i don’t know where you are coming from christy – i gave an example of what i saw as the different treatment summers/rubin vs gramm got. was my example incorrect or inaccurate? if so, i’m happy to be corrected. am i wrong about that motherjones article? if so, i’m happy to be corrected.

as for the balance of coverage – of course that is your call and not mine. but i still may, on occasion, have an honest difference of opinion with you. isn’t that to be expected? i don’t understand what the big deal is – am i not suppose to say anything when i disagree?


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 09:38 am 126
In response to selise @ 125

I’m just trying to understand what it is you want out of this disagreement? Because it feels like you want something, I just can’t tell what it is. Maybe I’m wrong — but that’s what I’m trying to understand.

Since econ writing really isnt my strong suit anyway — I tend to hit more corruption that econ theory, for very good reasons — I’m just not getting what it is you were trying to get out of the intial comment?


Mauimom | Monday March 16, 2009 09:42 am 127

Thanks, Christy. You do so much, and I am appreciative. If I had even a thimbleful of knowledge on this subject, I’d offer to write.

Part of my point, though, was to say that there’s the complete & deep understanding that folks here try to gain [and impart] and then there’s the really basic questions that Joe & Jane Sixpack might have:

* who/what is AIG?
* why was there a belief that they had to be “rescued”?
* what was supposed to happened if they weren’t?
* to whom are bonuses being paid?
* why is this big hunk of money going to banks, etc. outside the US?

and so forth

Since I used to teach 7th & 8th grade, I tend to envision answers [and questions] at about that level. Even I get lost in “the weeds” here, and I consider myself pretty thorough and thoughtful.

I think the erudite writers here could be ESPECIALLY helpful if they paused and thought about explaining this mess to their children. [That would be about 7 years beyond the comprehension level of the average American voter.]

That’s what I was thinking about, but please, hear first my compliments and gratitude, not another request!!!!

((()))


Christy Hardin Smith | Monday March 16, 2009 09:47 am 128

btw, I just popped up the Obama remarks on AIG from a few minutes ago at the small business meeting, in case anyone wants a perusal.


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 10:49 am 129
In response to selise @ 90

correction it is about 21 to 16 million.

details in the diary i just wrote for phred @100: $114 Million, $5.1 Billion


selise | Monday March 16, 2009 10:54 am 130

i was just responding to demi’s questions/comments re my comment @83 on populism. that is all.


demi | Monday March 16, 2009 11:46 am 131

Christy -
I’m glad you aren’t worrying about running for an office right now. You have enough on your plate here at the Lake and tending to your loved ones at home. Family is what we can count on right now. You nurture so many. And, you do it well. As a wife and a mother, I’m speaking from experience.
I’m making a pot of potato leek soup and then going to the gym.
We are all different and get our jollies in different ways. *g*


MarkH | Monday March 16, 2009 02:54 pm 132
In response to foothillsmike @ 25

Are they going to fly there on their corporate jets?

Yeah, strap them onto the outside. Heh.


MarkH | Monday March 16, 2009 02:56 pm 133
In response to ShotoJamf @ 27

Yeah, we definitely need to retain those top-notch employees who ran the company into the ground. Makes sense to me…

If it hadn’t been for Grammonomics they might not have gotten into this jam. Without the Republicans playing politics with the economy this might not have happened at all.

Still, the arrogance of these people is incredible.


Sorry but the comments are closed on this post
Check Credit Cards: Banks Playing Fast And Loose Again
Obama Remarks Today on AIG

Close